“Feminism is about multiple individuals. It’s about collectives. It’s about people coming together as who they are, however they are, and finding ways to move the world a little bit more towards justice, a little bit more towards equity.”
— Vandita Morarka in this episode of the Nurturing Radical Kindness podcast, on the essence of Intersectional Feminism.
Have you ever wondered if you were a ‘bad’ feminist? Or felt inadequate about your efforts in working towards social justice? Well, then you’re not alone. In this episode, co-hosts Sanchi Mehra and Vandita Morarka, joined by Uttanshi Agarwal, break down these questions (and more!); and discuss the burden of perfection on feminism, the notion of accountability, and our ideas of being a bad feminist.
Content Warning: This conversation includes references to misogyny and mentions of sexual violence.
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Love to read or want to revisit your favourite bits? Dive into the full transcript below!
Vandita
Hi, and welcome to the first episode of Nurturing Radical Kindness, a podcast by One Future Collective, where we will be exploring radical kindness as a pathway to achieving social justice. My name is Vandita and my pronouns are she and her.
Sanchi
My name is Sanchi, and my pronouns are she/her.
Vandita
And we will be your hosts for the first season of this podcast, and it’s so good to have all of you listening in today.
Sanchi
That’s right, and we’re going to jump right in and discuss something that we’ve always grappled with, the idea of a thing such as ‘imperfect feminism’.
Sanchi
As feminists, there’s always so much pressure on individual feminists and movements to be perfect, to always say and do the right thing, you know?
Vandita
Definitely, Sanchi. This is something I think we see so often, and I’ve seen it all my life. Most people are so much more angry at imperfect feminism or just the way they expect feminism to be than they would be at, like, systemic misogyny. There’s just constant burden on every single feminist, on every single feminist movement to never make a mistake, and that allows for no space for errors or any learning or any sort of growth. People seem to believe that being a feminist comes with some sort of instruction manual or like a set of universal guidelines that magically appear to people that they did decide that they are feminists, and that’s not really true, right? Most of the time we’re just figuring out our own feminist journeys with very little guidance from the people around us.
Sanchi
That’s so true, Vandita and I absolutely agree. Feminist movements and people are held to such high standards, a standard that often no one else is held to because of the general pushback against feminist ideology and, I think just making one mistake can lead to a host of people calling you out and cancelling you and not giving you the chance to just be human and the funny thing here is that some people would not cancel or call out someone who may have caused harm to another person in reality.
Vandita
Definitely, Sanchi. I think we find it easier to force high standards onto persons who are anyway aspiring to do better. In fact, Roxanne Gay puts this really well in her series of essays called The Bad Feminist. She very clearly says that “I embrace the label of a bad feminist because I’m human, I’m messy. I’m not trying to be an example, I’m not trying to be perfect. And I’m not trying to say that I have all the answers. I’m not trying to say I’m right. I’m just trying, trying to support what I believe in, trying to do some good in the world, trying to make some noise with my writing while also being myself.” And she also says that she believes it’s better to be a bad feminist than to be no feminist at all and honestly, I agree.
Sanchi
Absolutely, I think she’s put it so well, first of all, and secondly, I think it’s so much better to try at becoming a feminist than, like you said, not trying at all, right? And like you said, Vandita, we weren’t given a memo or an instruction booklet on how to be a feminist. In fact, what we were given was patriarchy and structures of oppression and inequality, yet we’d held to those absolute highest standards. So why do you think that is?
Vandita
That’s an excellent question, Sanchi, and it’s something that I’ve thought about all the time. To me, it actually goes back to patriarchy. I find that setting these impossible standards of perfection that no one can really achieve, or that these shouldn’t be expectations from anybody, is in itself also extremely patriarchal, because it pedestalizes a certain ideal of what a feminist is, and we just keep trying all our lives, failing and ever reaching that position. It doesn’t allow for any sort of learning and growth, and it also restricts a lot of people. For example, when I was young and I wanted to start on my feminist journey, there was just so much confusion and fear of the backlash or just what if I’m not good enough, right? Or what if I’m not doing enough? Am I supposed to show up for everything? Am I supposed to have an opinion on everything? And not only have that opinion, but have it publicly. So, a lot of ideas of what being a feminist is and the perfection standards around it are also a way to oppress people who are trying to start out on their journeys of being a feminist. Being a feminist doesn’t have to mean showing up for every cause, for every protest. Most because we understand that these issues are interrelated. You can’t really show up for one issue without caring for or knowing about another issue, but at the same time, we all also recognize that we’re human and we have limited capacity and that we may need to direction our efforts better, maybe towards the specific cause that we care about or something that we are more better positioned to solve for. And this, being a feminist, can look vastly different for different people and that’s something I’ve always found very beautiful about feminism, that it allows you to show up where you are, wherever you may be placed and however you can. Technically, it does not place the onus on you to be this perfect example of feminism or to live up to some sort of high-definition ideal of what a feminist should look like or what a feminist should be like. To me, as long as the basic values of equity and justice for everybody, alongside an understanding of how oppression and privilege work (even if their understanding isn’t there at 100%) – as long as we’re learning or the person we’re talking about is working towards developing a more nuanced understanding, the intention here for me becomes really important. I think the standards and the constant demands on us to perform our feminism in a way that actually our oppressors find acceptable, is patriarchy. It’s patriarchy also affecting the way we tackle patriarchy and adding to that, Sanchi, just having this kind of perfect knowledge and vocabulary around feminist concepts and theories is very often a privilege that comes with having access to these kind of social spaces. I remember when I was like 18 or 19, I had no idea about the larger theories and concepts and the language around feminism, and often because of that I didn’t also have an understanding of a lot of issues of intersectional feminism. My feminism has been a very learning and growing journey over the years, especially empowered by a lot of the professors I had in my initial college years who bought in feminism very gently through the work that they did with us. It was through political science, it was through economics, the way we learned feminism was very different, which is why the way I understood feminism in the beginning when I was about18 to 20, was very different from what it is now. And the fact that people have held space and let me not always be perfect in my feminism has really helped me learn, grow, make mistakes and ask questions more fearlessly.
Sanchi
Thank you so much for that, Vandita, that’s absolutely wonderful and I completely agree. And also adding on to that, so many of our feminist journeys have given us the language to call ourselves feminists, right? But looking back at my family, I realised that my mother, my father, and my grandmother, they were all feminists all this while, but they just did not have the language to call themselves one and that’s why I think all feminism needs to be celebrated. There is so much onus put on us feminists to be perfect and I think that’s really unfair and we should, like I said, just celebrate what we have and it’s a misconstrued idea, right? That all feminists agree on absolutely everything. Feminism, in itself, is such an inclusive movement and also so diverse, which means all of us might disagree on some things and may even have different perspectives, but that’s completely alright, yes? And we do agree on a few basic things. For instance, we do believe that everyone should be treated equally and with love and respect. While we may have many opinions that might resonate with one another, we’re all different individuals with different experiences and also different expectations. But here’s where people step in to divide the movement, because the idea that gender minorities can have opinions on things which might be different from the popular or disruptive is, so, just to put it simply, radical to people. I remember when ‘Captain Marvel’ came out, right? So many feminists celebrated the movie because of its strong portrayal of a female league and so many others were angry because of this for empowerment and token representation, especially by a multi-billion dollar commodity and yes, that was rightfully angering. So people were divided then and that’s completely okay. As a movement, I think we should and we do hold space for all different experiences and opinions.
Vandita
Thank you so much for that, Sanchi. I couldn’t agree more. I think this really brings me also to the point of the need for different movements just having a conversation and learning from each other and holding space to recognize the intent of each other. And sometimes, you know, people from within the movement make a mistake, and depending on what that mistake is and what sort of harm it may have caused, we have to recognize that people are human, movements are made up of these people. And the mistake of one single person cannot lead to the entire movement being discredited and to also just create that space for that person themselves to recognize what may have gone wrong and to correct that. An example of this that comes to mind from more recent times is that of Lizzo. She’s made absolutely fantastic music and she’s been a true star fighting for a place in an industry that just favors one type of body and she has been hailed like a true feminist icon by most people. There have been cases where she’s messed up, you know, and in a way she’s been cancelled. A recent example is in 2019, there was a plagiarism allegation in which she was accused of stealing an iconic lyric from her song Truth Hurts from a tweet that was written about seven months prior, or even her basketball game controversy, where many deemed her outfit and behaviour inappropriate. While some of these are issues that are issues of ethics and they require Lizzo, and they require any other artists or feminists to have accountability and correct the harm that they might have caused or correct any ethical injustice that they may have perpetuated, a lot of this is often just a difference in opinion between movements and people, as well as to what sort of feminism is appropriate. How we must, you know, maintain our feminism to be polite and to be acceptable and to be palatable to a wider audience. I think that’s also a lot of criticism that comes with not staying true to a certain kind of perfect idea of feminism, which I think is more for the oppressor than it is for the feminist, right? It is toning yourself down and fitting yourself into a box that fits the ideal of an ideal feminist, which is polite, which is nice, which is kind and remember, they’re constantly polite, nice and kind to be able to get things done. And that’s not necessarily true for everyone’s feminism. My feminism personally, is way more angry, it’s way more loud. It doesn’t necessarily always have a lot of politeness in it. And that feminism is as valid, right? And with Lizzo, going back to her- while these incidents, where even feminists were divided on what was right, so many people also took this as a chance to bash the movement and bash its supporters, but her response to the incidents truly showed me her feminism. Like exactly what you’ve been talking about, right? She took full accountability, she apologised, and she grew from these incidents. And what is more feminist than that? What is more feminist than recognizing that you may have made an error and working towards correcting that in a very highly public fashion?
Sanchi
I absolutely agree, Vandita, and really it takes a true feminist to acknowledge and to work on our mistakes. And honestly, I find it really funny and sad also that women are held to such high ideals that even in their feminism they are not allowed to make mistakes. And this reminds me of something Deborah Frances-White, comedian and host of The Guilty Feminist podcast, said, where she says that for some women, feminism has become another thing to feel inadequate about. And really, that is not what feminism is supposed to look like, right? It’s about empowering us and not making us feel less.
Vandita
Thank you for saying that, Sanchi. I feel like that one statement encapsulates everything I’ve ever felt. That to me, feminism became like this idea that I was striving towards and working towards everyday, but somehow, nothing I did was good enough and the danger for that, for me, is that it also led to a very high sense of burnout, a very high sense of losing my sense of work, especially because my work is very closely tied to feminist activism and just feminist advocacy through education and otherwise. And to me, it became this journey where I would never reach the destination. Not that there should be a destination to reach, but I felt like I would strive all my life and I would still fall short. And I would still not be seen as someone who is worthy enough of being a feminist, and I find that extremely harmful. I don’t want young people to grow up feeling that they can’t be feminists because they’re not 100% there yet. The only thing I want, I mean, if you’re listening in and if you’re someone who’s just starting out on your feminist journey, please just start. The world needs more people like you to start from wherever you are rather than to keep waiting for a perfect time. It doesn’t matter if your feminism or your activism is imperfect, as long as it does not harm another. It is your duty to start on that journey and I hope that you find people along that journey that make you realise that feminism is not some ancient ideal to live up to, but it’s something that you create and hold for yourself and that there is nothing to feel inadequate about. Thank you, Sanchi.
Sanchi
I hear you, Vandita, and thank you so much for saying that. I found it really inspiring personally. And I hope anybody who’s listening in to it and hoping to start really finds this the one moment they might have been waiting for to just go ahead and not worry about being perfect. So, Vandita, more about your personal experience and I want to ask you, what are some ways in which you think people try to discount the feminist movement by labelling it imperfect? What are some incidents that you might have faced along these lines?
Vandita
Thank you for that question, Sanchi. Trust me, so many come to my mind that it’s difficult to, like, narrow down to a few to share, but I’m gonna share two specific things that really stand out for me. One is when, you know, all of those men’s rights activists or these very certain specific groups come out with a lot of whataboutery? There’s a lot of ‘Oh, where were the feminists then or what were you doing then?’ And this generally comes up with regard to, say, any sort of violence against men or any sort of instance when the rights of a man might have been harmed. And my question always then is that isn’t the better and more important question at that point for the person asking me ‘Oh, where were the feminists then?’, is to ask themselves where were they? And why are they not living up to the expectations that they seem to have set off feminists and a feminist movement? Because I will tell you this that feminists don’t just propagate for the rights of women and gender minorities, right? We are working towards a more just and equitable world, and feminism there is for everybody. It is to undo anything harmful and anything toxic that could also harm men. So, I would just say that feminists have been there all the time. Where were you? And I find this one of the first instances that come to mind when we talk about outsiders to the movement, labelling it imperfect, and setting like these extremely high standards of how feminists should be and how we should behave. In fact, in a YouTube video by Jubilee where men’s rights activists and feminists were given a chance to interact, a men’s rights activist brought up the conversation around the death penalty in the US and how more men are likely to receive it for violent crimes than women and he deems this as an advantage for women. While the feminists on the panel agreed with him, the conversation here is also that a lot of men’s rights movements are placing the onus on the feminist movement to do something about this rather than working with the feminist movement to find a common solution to develop an evidence-based understanding of why there is more imprisonment of certain genders over the others, does that also come from a very patriarchal notion of who we even see as possible perpetrators and how we can work towards dismantling that? And not just that, like, how can we work towards dismantling the death penalty and imprisonment in general? And think of alternative structures, right? So there is a need for groups to come together rather than to constantly call each other out and say that, ‘Oh, that’s imperfect and that’s not the right way to be a feminist.’ The second thing I’m going to add is something that also often happens from within the movement. It happens by feminists to other feminists. I’ll give you a small example and a trigger warning of sexual violence. When any woman or any person from any marginalised group faces any form of sexual or other violence, there often builds up a lot of pressure informally, sometimes on reporting that crime. And this pressure often comes from other feminists as well. I think the lack of understanding that just because you don’t report a crime that happened to you, you are not an imperfect feminist. And also that just because you are a feminist, you do not owe the world your story, you do not owe the world the obligation to perform your trauma and to undertake a lengthy legal battle when that may not be something for you. And I find this extremely problematic because it often centres individuals as bad or imperfect feminists because they’re not standing up for the movements, they’re not advancing the movement. Often something that’s placed on them is ‘Oh, but what if that person harasses someone else?’ Instead of correcting what is technically an institutional problem, it is being placed onto the individual and they are being called a bad or an imperfect feminist, which I find troubling because you’re taking away from the responsibility of society and institution and you’re making it about that one person. In fact, to me, feminism there is allowing people that choice to decide what justice looks like for them, what that pathway to healing looks like for them. Also, I’m just gonna quickly add that there’s so much pressure on feminists because we expect them to be perfect people all the time. And the only thing that feminism has taught me, at least my feminism, is that perfection is just another way to keep more people out of feminist spaces.
Sanchi
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Vandita. Thanks for sharing that. And yes, please, if you’re listening, I’m going to repeat this. Don’t wait for the perfect moment. Just start on your journey. And I think it’s so unfortunate that in this gatekeeping of feminism, whether from people outside or inside the movement, it’s really unfortunate that we lose out on so much solidarity that these conversations deserve. And like you said, just because my feminism is different from yours, and it would look different in, say a case where I’m supposed to report, it would look different for me than it would for you, it does not mean that we aren’t both feminists, right? And it does not mean that we cannot stand for each other and with one another more importantly. And here Vandita, I am reminded of Audre Lorde’s words where she says that “I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” And I think that’s beautiful and it just encapsulates all that we’ve been talking about.
Vandita
Definitely. Thank you for sharing that, Sanchi. I think that quote is so powerful because it reminds me of where our true fight must lie and how there is a need to recognize the differences amongst each of us, but still hold space for each of us, and to always remember that there should be space for learning, for dissent, for conversations across and within movements. In fact, for me, the pathway of radical kindness also here highlights that feminists can be imperfect, but this can be as true and valid as that of others who might be seen as perfect. And also to remember that kindness here would include seeing these different kinds of feminism and recognizing that all of it is real and valid and so important. I’m so excited to also share that we have a wonderful member of the One Future Collective team here to talk with us as well about what imperfect feminism means to them. However, introduce our guest for today, Sanchi.
Sanchi
Absolutely, we have Uttanshi with us here today from the OFC team. Uttanshi is the Program Director at the FemJustice Centre and we are so glad to have you here with us today on the podcast. Hi Uttanshi.
Uttanshi
Hi Sanchi. Hi Vandita. Thank you so much for thinking of me to participate in this conversation with you all. It’s extremely personal to me and my journey as identifying as a feminist as well. So thank you so much for inviting me.
Vandita
Thank you so much for joining us, Uttanshi. I’m very excited about today’s conversation with you. And I’d love to start off by just first understanding that how did you come across feminism? And what does it mean for you? And of course, the most important part today that are you or have you always been a perfect feminist?
Uttanshi
Thank you for that question, Vandita. You know, I just started thinking when you asked me how I got introduced to feminism and how my journey began. And honestly, I want to go back to when I was 13 or 14 years old, which is almost the first time I heard the word feminism and that movement was just gaining traction, especially in the city that I was growing up in. But to be very honest, even though I knew the word and I knew of the movement in passing, it was not until much, much later in my life that I began to identify as a feminist, which actually makes me pretty upset because it feels like it’s a bad thing, right? It made me feel like I was doing something wrong by recognizing myself as a feminist and so much of that had to do with how the movement was being perceived where I was from, how people who were a part of the feminist movement were seen as people who were always angry, always full of rage and did not have any sort of rationality. And it was very easy for me to also buy into that narrative of the feminist movement, which I think discouraged me to recognize myself as a feminist for a long time after. If I were to name one instance which really shaped how I viewed feminism, or the one instance I look back to now and think how far I’ve come is really when SlutWalk came into India, and I think that was around the year 2011 and I remember that it was also in Bangalore- it is one of the cities where it took place. And I just didn’t get it, right? Like, I just didn’t understand why people had to dress a certain way and walk on the streets. I mean, we were equal, right in my head? And what were we fighting about? What would be so angry about? And that moment really stuck with me through the years, because with each reflective moment, I’ve had the chance to look back and really learn how far I’ve come and I’m immensely thankful for my journey and for spaces like this which have allowed that growth to exist within me. And when I talk about my journey with feminism, I think for feminism and my journey and towards identifying myself as a feminist, the entire transformation has been a massive exercise in calling my own problematic behaviour and attitudes out, recognizing my own unconscious biases and also learning about how we can overcome them, I think now, I associate feminism and its relationship with me to be one which constantly holds space for me to evolve and constantly holds space for me to learn and become better. Most of all, really, Vandita, Sanchi, it’s an exercise and a very difficult one, I must say, in pointing out the various faults which exist in my immediate surroundings while simultaneously finding hope for growth instead of despair. And I think this story has already sort of answered the second aspect of your question, which asks me if I have or if I am a perfect feminist. So no, I’m not, and I have never been, and I also don’t think I will ever reach a point in my life where I will be able to call myself a perfect feminist. My practice of feminism is honestly characterised by having flawed belief systems, and luckily also having access to empathetic, welcoming, resilient communities, online and offline, which have really held space for me and my misgivings, and also by extension, for me to grow and become a better feminist. So, I feel like to say that at any point in time I thought I was a perfect feminist would really go against my entire journey so far. And yes, I would definitely not say that I am or I have ever been a perfect feminist.
Sanchi
Right. Thank you so much for that, Uttanshi. And what really struck me when you were talking was there’s so much power in acknowledging that it is a difficult journey, right? But we still choose to do it because we know how much power then it holds for us. But Uttanshi, help me out here. Do you think we also put too much burden on the feminist movement and individual feminists to be absolutely perfect?
Uttanshi
Yeah, Sanchi, I think that’s such an interesting question, honestly, because while we are talking about imperfect feminism and our faults and misgivings, I think we are also trying to understand why it’s so important for us to talk about these faults, right? Like, I think the reason this question is coming around is because there is this inherent pressure to not be that way, to not be flawed. And I think there are a lot of reasons for this, right? Especially because as a culture we’re so used to expecting and rewarding the best, the perfect. This obsession with being flawless and perfect is present everywhere, right, from when we’re growing up in our schools, in our colleges, there’s comparison with our cousins at our workplaces. We’re constantly being rewarded for being perfect, for being flawless, for not making mistakes, and for showing up like nothing else in our lives is happening, for showing up in a way that nothing, that we’re not dealing with other complex emotions as well. So obviously, even with the feminist movement, a movement that is born and is evolving within this culture as well, there is a tendency to expect perfection and not just by those who don’t identify with the feminist movement, but also those of us who are very much a part of it as well. I mean, at the end of the day, we’re all part of the system and I think because of being grown up in an environment and culture which expects us to be the best and be perfect, we really pressurise ourselves to also never make mistakes and to always be perfect in everything we do and everything that we say. So much of this pressure is also, I think, because of the very ethos of the movement and how the entire movement is actually conceptualised in a way that threatens and demolishes existing power structures, right? And that generates an almost involuntary defensiveness amongst those who are not really a part of the feminist movement and also pushes for those within the movement to try hard to have all the answers and solutions because it’s so difficult for me to convince someone of how many strengths the movement has, and because I want other people to buy into the movement as soon as possible, I put the pressure on myself to have the perfect answers for all of the complex problems. And often while doing this, I forget that the reason I identify as a feminist is because it allows me to have imperfect solutions. It’s difficult to legitimise something in someone’s eyes when we don’t have easy answers or sure, short solutions, right? If somebody’s looking at me and saying ‘What good is this movement if you can’t tell me we will have fifty women and fifty men in an organization?’ You know? And we’re not talking about how that’s not the end goal, how there’s so much more than a man and a woman in this world, and how the conversation is continuing to evolve. We just don’t want to say to them that we don’t have perfect solutions because then they’re not interested in the movement anymore. So in an attempt to really convince others, I think we often tend to pressurise ourselves a lot too, to always say the right things, to always do the right things, to show up in ways which can by itself also be extremely, extremely draining. So, I completely agree that we ourselves pressurise a lot of our own work, as well as the work of our fellow feminists to be absolutely perfect and to not have any flaws within their systems.
Sanchi
Thanks again, Uttanshi. You put that so very well into words. And again, I’m just happy and glad that feminism does hold the space for us to evolve and grow right? And you know, there are times when feminists or the movement will make mistakes. And in those moments, I think accountability and relearning is important, not the blame game and labelling people as bad people. I believe it is also super important to build a culture of care, accountability and calling in, especially in spaces where power is shared and is not exercised by one over the other. Where power is over another, then alternative methods may be sought. But here, a question that comes to mind, then Uttanshi, is how do we draw the distinction between imperfect feminism on one hand, and feminist movements and practices that may be harmful to certain groups on the other?
Uttanshi
Thanks, Sanchi, for a very important question. I feel like it’s complex, but I also feel like that’s where we should be finding ourselves and trying to understand how we can understand this complexity and make sure that we are able to break down these concepts in a way that makes more sense for us and causes the least amount of harm as well. I think the most important thing to do is really to ensure that we don’t co-opt the language of care of accountability and reform with the language of harm. To put it very simply, I think with each interaction in our lives, there comes a moment for us to learn, and it is honestly how we respond to this very moment of learning that differentiates between imperfect feminism and feminism that can cause harm, for me at least. For instance, feminism that excludes persons of certain identities is more than just imperfect feminism, right? It’s also harmful because we’re delegitimizing the liberalities of an entire community. We’re delegitimizing an identity, we’re saying we’re better than you when that’s exactly what the feminist movement was initiated to fight against, that ideology was exactly which inspired the feminist movement to begin. For instance, when a particular feminist organization is trans-exclusionary or oppressive on account of an individual’s caste, class or race, or even when we systematically leave our disabled persons from feminist conversations, we are constantly replicating the very systems of oppression that the feminist movement was built to destroy. So I really think it’s about our receptivity to being told, you know, ‘Hey, you’re wrong and here’s how you can become better.’ This takes a lot of courage too, right? To be able to admit we’re wrong and then it’s probably even more difficult for us to reach out for help because it is a brain response at this point, right? To be defensive, to be comfortable in our ways and to attack somebody else who’s telling us ‘Oh, you’re wrong.’ I think it becomes tougher for us to do this, especially when we are being called out for something that we had to undergo a lot of hard work to be able to achieve. So for example, as a feminist, it’s probably taken a lot of emotional resilience, a lot of learning and unlearning for me to be able to arrive at a point where I’m a strong advocate for women’s rights. And then when I reach at that point after this long and arduous journey, somebody points a finger at me and says, ‘No, Uttanshi, this is where you’re going wrong because you’re not legitimising or you’re not being inclusive with this particular identity.’ My immediate brain response is going to be to get very, very defensive. You don’t know how hard I’ve tried. You don’t know how hard I’ve worked to be where I’m at. It’s basically us fighting against those who invalidate the feminist movement, except this time we’re the ones doing it. And that’s another thing that I think my journey towards feminism has taught me- that being wrong and learning from others is alright and I will just have to have compassion for myself because literally in any alternative scenario, I am so stuck in my ways that my reflex is to invalidate another person’s identity and the reason I say this is because identities are going to be ever-evolving, and if I don’t remain fluid enough, I am going to become exclusionary whether or not I like to. And the minute I start being so caught up in my ways that I don’t want to be corrected is the minute I think my feminism can cause a lot more harm than do good for the movement.
Sanchi
Thank you so much again, Uttanshi. And I think it just boils down to us saying that the future is inclusive. That is what a feminist imagines the future to be, right? And I agree, it takes immense courage to listen to the other side and see how we can work together and rectify maybe a mistake that we’ve made. And again, going back to feminist practices that will be harmful to the other side, I think an instant example that comes to mind is one of JK Rowling. And I think had she also accepted, acknowledged and tried to learn, we would have been in a much better scenario today.
Vandita
Definitely Sanchi. Thank you for sharing that with us, Uttanshi. I found that extremely powerful and I think that that is something that really guides my practice too. Imperfect feminism doesn’t mean that we’re allowed to harm others. I think we understand and just process that very wrongly. It’s also about creating a space for just understanding intention in parallel to impact and giving and allowing people the space to grow and learn. So then Uttanshi, my question to you is how do we then call people in instead of calling them out? And when and why should we practice this, if at all?
Uttanshi
I think it’s so great that we’re all speaking about building these spaces where people can own their mistakes, display their vulnerability and hold compassion for themselves and for others as well. And I think that’s also what this shift to calling in culture really is testament to right? At the heart of calling in culture, I think, is an invitation to recognize our own flaws and accept that maybe changing and evolving thought processes can be a public process. And once that happens, I also see it encourages others to sit more comfortably with the discomfort of their own evolution. There’s something this professor, Loretta J Ross, says about the calling in culture, and she says ‘Calling in culture is exactly like calling out culture, but with love.’ She goes on to say that cancel culture doesn’t work because it’s expecting people to be and to do better without actually telling them how they can be and do better. To the bit about how we can start calling people in, there’s really no map or pathway to it. And as much as I’d really like to have one, I don’t think that’s the way to go about this entire process at all because, at the heart of it, I see it to be a very intuitive, a very instinctive process. What’s really worked for me, however, and that I can share with you all, which I have also learned from my colleagues and friends, is to perhaps approach these conversations with a sense of curiosity about why someone thinks the way they think. And also really honestly not judging them for the way they process their thoughts, for the way they share with you the reasons for their belief systems or the reasons why their attitudes were shaped the way they were. There is a sense of familiarity, I think, that we share with our ways, and change can be very uncomfortable and scary and when I’m expected to change that entire process and change that attitude in one go, it is possible that I get really defensive. So to be really able to have an impact, to be really able to have this conversation, I found it also necessary to build a safe environment for the person to process their thoughts and learn and change how they think in an environment that’s actually invested in nurturing them, in an environment that’s actually invested in their safety and in their growth. This is not, however, to say that calling in culture is the perfect solution and that cancel culture holds no value. Sometimes, and I think you mentioned earlier as well, that it becomes very difficult in situations where there is an unequal power dynamics. Sometimes, especially when the fight is against someone who is privileged, who is extremely influential and who has not bothered to rectify their ways despite being told what is wrong repeatedly, this is often the last straw. This is probably the only way we can get them to acknowledge the harm that they are causing on an everyday basis. It’s important for us to, however, balance these views, and the priority, according to me at least, has to be in either approach, right? Whether we decide to call in and have a conversation with someone, or whether we decide to call someone out, the priority has to be to ensure that more harm is not done in the process of doing good.
Sanchi
Yeah, that’s such a beautiful thought and it just fills me with so much joy and so much excitement to imagine what the results of a culture like that, of calling in could be like. Uttanshi, would you like to share some closing thoughts on how we can build solidarities and bridges between movements and build space for people to be imperfect in their feminism while ensuring no harm is done?
Uttanshi
Definitely Sanchi and also thank you for having this really, really wonderful conversation with so much grace and Vandita to you too, to be able to lead such a difficult conversation through all of this complexity is very, very difficult and I think you both have done an absolutely phenomenal job. To answer your question Sanchi, and to just tie this conversation together towards the end, I think the main thing is we must focus on intention along with the impact, right? Of course, the impact is important. Of course, causing harm to another person is and should be determined by how that harm was received by the person. But on the other hand, in doing so, we shouldn’t completely sideline the intention of the person causing a particular form of harm. It is important for us to realise that sometimes this harm is caused in a manner that may not be intentioned in a way that causes harm. And once we start recognizing this relationship between intention and impact, I think we’ll also start realising that merely because I recognize someone’s intention, I’m not saying or invalidating the impact that that particular act has had on another person. Maybe someday we’ll be able to build a society where I am able to redress the impact and the harm caused while also keeping in mind the intention with which that harm was caused. Another thing that I think, especially on the point about how movements can be built and how solidarities can be really built ground up is, movements really have to learn from each other. And I say this from my personal experience as well. My activism in the gender justice framework has borrowed, has learned so much from different movements, right? The anti-caste movement, the abolitionist movement. All of these movements have constantly informed my opinions. They have made me want to be better for the causes that I hold really, really close to my heart. We have to make space for voices that have been historically oppressed as well. For example, a lot of the movements today, even within the gender justice sphere, right? For example, within the feminist movement, we see a lot of trans-exclusionary radical feminism. Within the queer community also, we see a lot of trans erasure. We also see a big part of the queer communities movement being co-opted to be directed towards realising heteronormative ideas and not really representing the interests of the entire community. And it’s important for us, I think, while we work on these movements and while we are learning from our own mistakes and experiences, to also really learn from each other and to learn especially from those whose interests we claim to be fighting for and whose allies we seem to be.
Solidarity between movements for greater change is something that I think is impossible to neglect. And I feel like, by learning from each other, by contributing our skills to each other, we’re really going to be able to build much, much, much stronger movements. And this is not to say that again, right, this whole conversation, I think it ties in beautifully to something that I’ve been thinking about how the minute we start holding space for imperfections, we’re also holding space for people to come together, learn, apologise for mistakes that they are making, acknowledge harm that they may cause, while also ensuring that they’re being accountable for that harm. And one of the ways by which the accountability can be seen is putting out an active plan to correct that harm, letting people know that, look, I recognize I did this and I did it wrong, but here is how I’m going to correct it. Another small example, I think, is just to think of how within the feminist movement, because we’ve been talking about feminism so far, is how we need to build that sort of cohesion between, say, feminists from the older generation, whose fights were probably different, whose concerns were probably different, whose experiences were probably different, and how they should probably be holding space for future feminists to come and learn from them at the same time, for us to also hold space for them and work together with them to understand what the evolution of the entire movement has been. So I think if I were, to sum up everything I’ve been saying really, Sanchi is just really holding space for mistakes, holding space for learning, and holding space for growth. And the minute we stop doing that, we really run the risk of alienating others and causing a lot more harm than any good that could have come out of our collaboration.
Vandita
Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Uttanshi. I think that was incredibly beautiful. I will share this quote by Ruth Bader Ginsburg that really stands out for me every day, which is that “When you put women on a pedestal, you’re essentially caging them.” And I find that we often do that to feminists, to feminist movements as well. The expectation of perfection and the pedestalizing of a lot of the individuals in the movement and the movement itself can be very detrimental to our personal and collective feminist journeys. I also find that the very idea of needing to pedestalize some people or some movements as these perfect people or movements is very much away from what feminism is about. Feminism is about multiple individuals. It’s about collectives. It’s about people coming together as who they are, however they are, and finding ways to move the world a little bit more towards justice, a little bit more towards equity. Thank you so much.
Sanchi
Thank you. And that’s a wrap for today’s episode. Thank you so much for coming on today, Uttanshi. It was so nice to speak with you.
Vandita
Absolutely Sanchi. Uttanshi, you were fantastic and we’re so happy to have had you as the first guest in the podcast.
Uttanshi
Thank you, Vandita and Sanchi for really calling me on and making me a part of this really beautiful conversation that you are having. I’m very excited to see what else you all do with this podcast and I’m looking forward to learn with you all as well.
Vandita
Until next time then. Stay with us on our journey towards a radically kinder world.
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For more delightful discussions on practicing feminism and fostering communities of care, check out the other episodes of the Nurturing Radical Kindness podcast! Until then, here’s a reflection activity for you to mull over.
| Reflection Activity – Imperfect Feminisms Visualise how you experience joy in feminist spaces that you’re a part of. Send us photos of what you visualise. This could be a comic strip. It could be a doodle. It could be a Canva poster. You can visualise this the way you want to because we want feminist spaces to also be about spaces that hold joy and love for each other. Share them with us at info@onefuturecollective.org! |
What is the Nurturing Radical Kindness Podcast?
Radical Kindness is the ethos and practice that forms and informs One Future Collective. It guides our constitution as an organisation and is the core value that guides our work. It is a politics of love, fighting against apathy and hopelessness. Often being ‘hard’, ‘stoic’ or ‘rigid’, is considered crucial for social change, and it is this very notion that radical kindness challenges. It espouses that being kind, compassionate and loving in our activism can still pave the way for dissent, defiance, growth and rebuilding. It is a tool we seek to use to rebuild our systems with care, nurturance and justice at their core. It allows us to hold various stakeholders, including ourselves, accountable in how we interact with ourselves and our communities and to build towards a lived reality of social justice collaboratively.
Hosted by Sanchi Mehra and Vandita Morarka of One Future Collective, this podcast attempts to unpack what it means to be radically kind and how we can practice it through conversations with members of the One Future Collective community.