“…in general, even pre-pandemic, so much of our time goes into the office but somehow the standards we hold of our companies and the places we work at are so low. Like the bare minimum is seen as companies being amazing, companies being supportive, whereas companies have the scope to do so much more. Workplaces can be a place for people to care for each other, for individuals to thrive and to find community.”
— Vandita Morarka reflects on the potential for workplaces to foster communities of care in this episode of the Nurturing Radical Kindness podcast.
The pandemic may have completely changed how we navigate and envision the workplace, but if there’s one consistent concern that has withstood the digital transition, it is the problem of toxic workplaces. Are you too working extra hours with an immense pressure to deliver “perfect” output? Is your workplace refraining from supporting your personal learning journeys? Be it virtual or physical spaces, toxicity at the workplace can bog down anyone’s morale. How do you identify a toxic workplace when you’re working virtually? How do you create effective boundaries and develop people’s power to address workplace toxicity? In this episode, co-hosts Vandita Morarka and Sanchi Mehra, are joined by Nishma Jethwa, a lawyer by training and now working across the anti-oppression and social justice spaces in both London and Mumbai, as they discuss a range of topics from identifying signs of a toxic work environment to navigating professional relationships and setting boundaries for oneself.
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Love to read or want to revisit your favourite bits? Dive into the full transcript below!
Vandita
Hi everyone. Welcome back to the fourth episode of the Nurturing Radical Kindness Podcast, a space where we explore radical kindness as a pathway to achieving social justice. My name is Vandita and my pronouns are she and her.
Sanchi
Hi, and I’m Sanchi. My pronouns are she/her, and we’re so happy to have you tuning in to another episode of this podcast. All of you have been so kind with the feedback you’ve given us on the previous episodes and really, seeing all your words has really been a highlight for our team.
Vandita
Definitely, couldn’t agree more with you, Sanchi. Thank you everyone for listening in and showing up to have these conversations with us. And I’m super excited for today’s episode. Sanchi, why don’t you tell everyone what we’ll be talking about today?
Sanchi
Absolutely. I’m super stoked too to be having this conversation, Vandita, and this is something that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately, especially since our very perception of this specific topic has greatly shifted this year. So, today we’ll be talking about toxic workplaces and we’ll try and look at some steps you can take to identify such workplaces to then manage them accordingly and we’ll also explore how does such an environment really affects us. Other things that we will be taking up are how do you really set your boundaries in such a setting because that’s so important in every single workplace, but I think it becomes especially important when a workplace is taking a toll on you, right? Henceforth, I think also an important conversation at this point in time because humme se bohot saare logon ke liye (a lot of people amongst us) work looked so different this year. So, something that didn’t change, however, was it could still be toxic, right? And like we know; a lot of big companies have extended work from home until somewhere around the middle of this year. And with the kind of work environment everyone’s had at home, I think ek point ke baad ye toh definitely identify karna bohot mushkil tha ki (it’s difficult to be able to identify this beyond a point), what even is a workplace, right? And in that process, I think from personal experience, I definitely do think our ideas of boundaries either took a back seat or at some points of time it also just vanished, right?
Vandita
No, definitely Sanchi, thank you for bringing that up. I also feel that in general, even pre-pandemic, so much of our time goes into the office but somehow the standards we hold of our companies and the places we work at are so low. Like the bare minimum is seen as companies being amazing, companies being supportive, whereas companies have the scope to do so much more. Workplaces can be a place for people to care for each other, for individuals to thrive and to find community. And with the virtual shift happening, I find that for a lot of organisations, it has meant a reduction in the sort of support they provide to their people, rather than what I would expect, right? The other way around, where you reach out and you care for your people more. So Sanchi, just to start us off, you know, when we talk about toxic workplaces, what is it that comes to your mind?
Sanchi
I think that’s a great place to start this conversation, Vandita, even though we know such workplaces definitely are in great places to be, right? But when I think about toxic workplaces ek image jo dimaag me aati hai (the one image that comes to mind ) is that of any environment, any work or any people in that environment jo hamari functioning ya hamari life ko negatively impact kare (something that impacts our functioning and our life negatively). And I think that is the picture that I see when I think about toxic workplaces. And what I’d like to stress on here is that it isn’t necessary that it affects our functioning at work only, because like I said, it might negatively impact our life as well, which is to say that the toxicity of the workplace is not limited to the workplace only. It does extend further into our life. And I think Gary Chapman, Paul White and Harold Myra put this very well in their book, which is called Rising Above a Toxic Workplace: Taking Care of Yourself in an Unhealthy Environment and what they say here is that when a workplace becomes toxic, its poison spreads beyond its walls and into the lives of its workers and their families. So not only do toxic workplaces have an impact on workplace issues, where employees’ morality takes a day for them, motivation is generally lower, they have lower productivity, it might also mean that there is an increased instance of conflict beyond the workplace. Matlab ki at home also there can be an increase in the conflicts that an employee has. And I think having said that, Vandita, I’d like to know from you, hum aise environment mein kya kar sakte hai? (how do you think we can deal with such an environment?)
Vandita
Bilkul, I think the first thing for me is that if you can leave that space, and I know while I say it also, it’s such a privileged statement, and especially during the pandemic, I know so many of us, including me who have been stuck in spaces and gigs that we can’t leave because the job market is terrible. We do need money to keep functioning every day. So, I think the first thing to do is to see if you can find an exit pathway out of that organisation. And even before that, like now going back to what actively can be done, I think for so many of us and mere liye bhi, like when I have been in these places, it takes so long to even recognize that I’m in a toxic environment because there’s a lot of gaslighting, there’s a lot of like your bosses, your other employees making you believe that this is what work is, this is what organizations are like and you should be lucky to even have a job, right? I think it starts with that. It starts with a lot of convincing of an employee that this is your reality. No other reality is possible and look at all these other happy employees working in this organization. So, if you are the one who has problems, then you are the problem. So, I think over time it leads to a lot of us internalizing and making it about us and seeing that we might be in a space that is toxic for us, right? Just that sort of negative culture is so normalized, like even in movies or like TV shows, it’s shown very normally that people stay until late hours, pick up work calls even in the middle of like personal commitments. And I find that even over here we need to make an important distinction that see, some of us might enjoy doing that. Some of us might want to put in extra hours or may want to prioritise work. That doesn’t necessarily have to mean that it is a toxic space. Toxicity comes from- Are you able to disengage? Do you fear backlash if you disengage? Are you able to be your true, authentic, complete self at the workplace? Would your workplace recognize you for what you do? Would it support you for things that you might need additional support in? And would it not gaslight you? Right? So, these are elements of toxicity that do come up, where your workplace has to create space for you to have a healthy working environment and it doesn’t just have to be about a trope of ‘Oh if you work late hours, it’s a toxic workplace.’ Perhaps it is, but it’s not necessarily a toxic workplace. So, I think that distinction also becomes quite important. One of the things that you can do after first recognizing that ‘Ok, you know the space I’m working in is toxic’, is look for alternatives, look for other spaces, maybe even within your organisation. Maybe the entire organisation isn’t necessarily a toxic space, but the team you’re working in is. Maybe you have a boss that micromanages, is not very efficient at their job, pushes a lot of blame onto you. So, if you’re within a larger organisation, it might be a good idea to look for a shift internally as well. And I think for me, a rule of thumb has been that if every morning you wake up and you are scared or you fear the day or you’re just looking at the day with dread because you have to go back to work, or at the end of the day, you’re drained, and I mean drained, not just be physically tired or just gently tired, but you’re emotionally spent, you might be working in a toxic workplace. Even if you’re doing work that is fulfilling, right? So, I will speak from my experience in the social sector. So, there are days when I’m completely drained at the end of the day, and that also often happens because our work demands so much from us emotionally. But if at no point your workplace is giving you space to rebuild your emotional reserves, then it is a toxic space. Just because you do work that is of a nature which provides care and support to others, does not mean that your workspace does not have to account for care for you. And I think a workplace culture is definitely shaped by the worst behaviour that it’s willing to tolerate, and that is something for us to keep in mind. So, to sum it up, recognize toxicity, build alternatives, this could be within or externally, and third, what you can definitely try doing is negotiating on this behaviour because leaving spaces may not be a realistic opportunity for a lot of us. So, can you draw boundaries? Can you make shifts to be able to reduce that toxicity from your space? Often, I find that just recognizing toxicity can also help us set these boundaries. What do you think, Sanchi?
Sanchi
I think all of the points that you brought up were so important, Vandita. And one thing that I really liked was how you brought up this thing ki we are so accustomed and normalised to thinking ki aisi hi hoti hai workplaces (workplaces are like this only). My workplace is no different and what it expects of me is like what any other workplace would, but it’s, like you said, so, so important to see that hum ye cheeze engrain nahi kare apne dimaag mein (we have not engrained these things in our minds) and like we take active steps to recognize if we are in a toxic workplace, right? And I think what I have found very useful if I am in such a situation, is really finding a community at whatever setting you are in, right? Because I have seen ki whenever I speak to other people and I hear from their experiences that they’re also going through something similar, I feel better because I know that it’s not on me, right? I find a community; I know that there are other people who are feeling the same way. So, I think that has really worked well for me. And the next step that I think we can take here is then documenting what happens really at a workplace so that if ever you need to go to that level, you can take legal action, right? And so, I think these are two things that I think might be helpful once you have recognized that the environment you are in might be taking a toll on you.
Vandita
Definitely, Sanchi, I think over here like beyond, say, elements of toxic workplaces that we’re talking about, right? From say, a boss that doesn’t value your opinion or shows favouritism, being overworked, undervalued, all of that. I think there is also a point where toxic workplaces can be inherently problematic for certain identities and I think that is a level of toxicity and a distinction within toxic workplaces that not a lot of spaces talk about. So, the policing of queer bodies, queer identities, racism within the workspace, just general gender discrimination within the workplace. So, while a general level of toxicity may exist within the organization, how different people and different identities experience it may be very different based on what motivating factors and intentions behind such toxic behaviour is. I think we saw it with the Ellen scandal and I think there’s, everyone seen a ‘Why I left BuzzFeed’ video, right? The upper management in a lot of these spaces is toxic and that flows down into the organisation. And as we saw within the social sector with the whole Black Lives Matter movement, we’ve seen it in India with the Dalit Lives Matter movement as well that there is a lot of racism and casteism within our own organisations, even within social justice spaces. And that is not just mere toxicity that is applied to everybody, right? That has an additional layer of discrimination that we do need to account for.
Sanchi
Absolutely, thanks so much for bringing that up, Vandita. I think that clearly shows us how like all the identities that we occupy intersect with where we work at and how our experience of that workplace is, right? And while these look like major red flags to us in recognizing if we’re at a toxic workplace, I think there are subtle red flags as well, right? If you generally see there’s a lot of gossip culture or lots of rumours around wherever you work, or communication isn’t as good as it should be. These are also some things that we should pick up on and see, we have to recognize that we deserve a place that accepts us wholly and helps in our growth, right? So even these small things like, like I said, communication isn’t that good, we need to take action on that, right? We need a workplace where we are able to grow ourselves. And going back to the book that I referred to earlier, I think these authors also have brought up very well how they say that no matter what they tried at their workplaces, it was just never enough for their employers and I think that’s so important because it is vital that the organisation you are dedicating so much of your time and effort to, that it also recognizes the work that you put in and values it for whatever you do, right? So, and since I have started talking about employers, I think there’s a lot that employers can do in their capacity, right? I work in the human resources sector and I think one very, very important thing that we often forget here is that the focus is on ‘human’ resources and not human ‘resources’. So, what you put emphasis in, in these two words really, really matters. So, Vandita, why don’t you tell us what are some things that employers can maybe do to help make their workplaces a better place to be?
Vandita
I’m gonna give like a small brief because I don’t necessarily think that there is a, you know, like a five-step program that employers can do. We do have to think about adapting and contextualising what support employees may require across our organisations, but I think it can just start by valuing the people that work for your organisation and not just seeing them as profit-making cogs in like a larger machine and to see them as individuals deserving of respect, empathy and just the general considerations you would assign to a human being. I think just starting with that and then like smaller things also, like ensuring you give credit to your team members, have flexibility in a lot of ways of how you work, time off, what time of the day you want to work, like things like that. And I think in general if you’re someone in a more management position or you’re a supervisor, even just having favourites, even the positive, what you might see as a positive, right? Having a favourite or valuing some employees more can also lead to that workplace becoming a toxic environment for others. If you are recognizing that there are some employees that are outperforming others, perhaps the question to ask is- how can I support others to perform like this? Or how can I support others to find their passion and their direction in the same way that maybe some of my employees have? And most importantly, there has to be space for employees to be able to be open, to be able to even, like make a complaint or give feedback in a way that does not mean that there will be retaliation against you. So mutual feedback, just having strong policies in place, a lot of that does help. And I think since we are talking about this, I’m very excited to now introduce the guest of today’s podcast. Nishma is someone who has been working in this space for a while and comes with a lot of experience around building workplaces that are inclusive and that are just. Nishma Jethwa works in the social justice and anti-oppression space and is also an advisor to One Future Collective. So happy to have you with us today, Nishma.
Nishma
Hi, thank you so much. Happy to be here.
Sanchi
Hi Nishma. So happy to have you here today and I think I want to learn lots from you. So, I’m going to jump right in and ask you the starting question, which is what do you think are some behaviours that are enabling the toxic workspaces that we’ve been talking about? And if you have any tips on how our listeners can recognize them?
Nishma
Yes, absolutely. So, I think some of the definitions that you both gave around toxic workplaces were really, really important. So, I won’t, I won’t repeat them. But to add to them, as you were speaking, it really, really made me think of these ideas that I’ve been coming across, I’ve come across over the last few years around white supremacy culture and also how that intersects with kind of capitalistic productivity and ideas of what productivity is, right? And so, in addition to some of the things that you both mentioned around toxicity at workplace, it makes me think a lot around things like perfectionism. So, the idea that we need to be perfect, our work needs to be perfect, if it’s not perfect, then your employees or your team members are actually punished for that. It might not be that you shout at them in the office, for example, which might still happen, but it might not be that, but it might be smaller things. Like some of the things you mentioned around of them not really being your favourite or that becoming clear that you don’t really talk to them in the same way or treat them the same way. Maybe you don’t provide them with feedback if their work isn’t up to the standard that you need. And also, things like having a sense of urgency. So the kind of, the levels at which we’re expected to work and if we contextualise that now to the pandemic and I mean just the world situation really and everything that we’re dealing with, on top of that, not allowing space to be able to process the context in which we are working and just only be prioritising the specific work outputs or being expected to prioritise only those specific work outputs without understanding the context of people’s lives, right? I mean there are so many other sorts of criterias or things that we can think about when we think about white supremacy culture in the workplace, but I guess what the crux of it is that when we’re kind of like, like you said, when we’re prioritising outputs or productivity over people, over relationships, over humans, I think that’s kind of where the red flag should really go up. And that’s where I feel like we should be really thinking about what is it that our workplace is creating for our teams and our employees.
Vandita
Thank you for sharing that, Nishma. I think that’s extremely pertinent. And you brought up what workplaces looked like during a pandemic and the immense focus on adaptation and just continuing to produce without fully processing that, you know, we’re living in the middle of a pandemic, and it’s something that none of us are used to, and the sort of shifts it creates for employees based on their living situations, on their social positionality. And offices and organizations not really taking account of that. I’d love to understand from you that during the pandemic, how did you see the sort of toxicity come up within organisations when we were working online when the pandemic is ongoing. And also, what did you see in terms of organizations that did better, that did manage to provide adaptations that worked for their employees, that were able to prioritize their people over say, just profits?
Nishma
Such a good question. So actually, when the pandemic first started, I was working much more closely with One Future Collective. So, I feel like I have some really, I was lucky enough to have some really great examples of what good behaviour could look like. So, I will, I will try and share some of the things that really, that really stood out to me and that really helped me, I feel. But I think going back to the first part of your question and thinking about what is it that how did these, some of these elements of toxicity manifest when the pandemic started and when we, I think in particular when we went into lockdown, right, because we all started working from home whether or not we, we had done that in the past. And I think the biggest, the biggest thing that I saw was a desire to kind of adhere to this idea of business as usual. And I think that goes back to what I was saying, right, about situating our understandings of what productivity is and what work is in the context of capitalism. So, this, even this phrase, right? ‘Business as usual’, it’s from, it’s from that, it’s from that space. And so, I think that desire to be like ‘Let’s just carry on, let’s just do what we can do, do, do exactly what we’re doing, but do it from home.’ And I think that is the, that was like the underlying problem with the way in which many workplaces approached moving work from the office into the home when the pandemic started. And I think that created a lot of challenges because it didn’t consider personal context, it didn’t consider that many people have never worked from home. It didn’t consider how boundaries would become blurred. It didn’t consider how people that are otherwise responsible for things at the home would now have to do things at home while also working at the same time, right? And so, I think that was the biggest challenge that I saw with people when the pandemic started and in terms of how toxicity was manifesting at that time. And then I think, if I shift to organisations that were doing well or maybe behaviours that I saw that were that were really helpful. I think again the underlying, I think the underlying value or the underlying thought process which behind those who are making decisions at these organisations was that recognizing that our team are our people. They’re human beings, right? And they’re not, they’re not just productivity machines. And, their role in life is not to just create outputs. And it might not be physical outputs, right? Even if it’s outputs of like having to be able to manage X number of calls in a day or X number of Zoom videos, just recognizing that that’s not all that we do and so as human beings, we need to be able to balance that. So, some of the behaviours or policy changes that I saw that were really, really helpful were things like not being expected to work at the same level. So being able to drop your number of calls, number of emails, number of things that you’re doing to like 80% or 70% or even 50% of what you would normally be doing. I know that some organisations even had a time where they were just off from work to be able to recalibrate, to be able to kind of set workspaces up and just get used to this new world situation that we were living in. I think also what’s really useful, and I found incredibly useful, was team leaders and organisations asking their employees how they want to work and how they want to be communicated with. It was very easy when we move from the office space into our home spaces, and we’re always communicating virtually, to think that people should be available to you all the time. So thinking it’s okay to text them or WhatsApp them or call them at any time, right?
But actually, giving people the opportunity proactively to set their boundaries around when they can be contacted, how they want to be contacted, that kind of thing I think made a huge difference to just being able to feel like, ‘Ok, I still have, I’m still a person and I’m not always working and I’m still and it’s still okay’, right? Like taking away from the guilt I could be feeling. So that’s, I think that’s why it’s really important that the work it was the workplaces that were bringing this up and giving you the opportunity to set those boundaries rather than expecting you to do that. Because I think we all feel, having obviously been socialised in this world, we all can feel very guilty for setting those kinds of boundaries ourselves.
Vandita
Definitely. If I may just add on to that, Nishma, I think everything you brought up is so pertinent and I would like to start with a caveat of how workplaces, at least some of the ones that I know constantly kept pushing the idea that you should be grateful you still have a job because of the layoffs that were happening, because of the general downturn in the economic forces, right, across the world. And I think that in itself was so toxic because what they successfully managed to do within like the first few weeks of the pandemic is that, if during a pandemic you wish to even be able to like, feed your families, be grateful that you have this job. I know people who’ve been told that if you can’t get these number of sales commissions in a month, then you’re out and you should be grateful we’re still even trying to keep you. And I saw this happen across board and across sectors and especially I think in the social justice space what I found was that there was an immense demand on our emotions and on our compassion and there was a sort of moral call to show up, which I understand and I see the need for, but I find that it wasn’t supplemented with any sort of compassion towards people in the social justice space. And what I’ve seen happen is that it’s not only the founders going out into the field to do ration distribution, right? In some case, it is, but mostly you’re sending your teams, mostly you’re sending employees that are considered at a more junior level. You’re expecting your therapist to constantly show up and provide therapy for a situation that they are also facing for the first time. So, in the social justice space, I just felt like there was no compassion towards their own teams. There was very minimal compassion. I think compassion started coming in later and it came more as what you signalling than about recognizing what the needs of the teams are. I’ll just quickly share that you know, towards the last 2-3 months of last year, a lot of our internal work sort of slowed down, especially in terms of training and facilitation because like Nishma said, Zoom got really exhausting. And everyone kept asking me, ‘Oh, you know, you all did such a great adaptation at the beginning of the year, when the pandemic hit, at One Future Collective. Why did you all slow down? You’ll lose out on your audience.’ etc. And I didn’t have an answer. Just like, we’re really tired. I don’t have any other answer. We’re exhausted. If I have to switch on my video and talk to more people, I will punch the screen. Like, I just cannot do that anymore and I know that my team can’t. So, to just be able to slow down was also such a challenge because of the reciprocal demands being made and also this constant feeling like you’ll lose people’s attention and you’ll lose your audience. I don’t know, how would you navigate something like that Nishma?
Nishma
Yeah no, thank you so much for showing those two points. They’re so, so important. And I just, before I answer your question, I did want to say that that first point was so interesting because I think it goes to this confusion that we all hold and this is true even pre-pandemic, right, between doing, I’m using the word good, in, just, like just for ease, but basically the difference between doing good and being good. And so, this idea that ‘Oh, we’re a social justice organisation and so we do things in a community, we provide, we are empathetic to our communities. We provide therapy. We provide goods or we provide shelters. That’s what we do as an organisation,’ right? And so that idea that by doing these things we are, just by virtue of doing those things, we are automatically adhering to our values or adhering to these ideas that we purport to support, right? And I think that really breaks down in the example that you’ve given, where actually we don’t think about our own people or the people within our communities, even if that’s not in our team and what the impact is on them. We’re not living our values, we’re just kind of throwing them outwards externally but we haven’t thought at all about what that means internally for our team. So, I just thought it was a really important point.
Vandita
Definitely Nishma. Something so simple as, like, when am I supposed to cook my meals? You’re expecting me to show up at 9:00 or 10:00 AM, even virtually, and then I’m expected to keep working way longer hours, especially say for me as someone who does digital work and suddenly really, you know, during the pandemic, people realised the importance of digital work and they didn’t have team capacities that were equipped to do it. So, I know that there were few people in different teams, world over, that suddenly had this new burden of work. Even the basic understanding that I would need at least an hour to cook my meals, or that everyone does not come from a space of privilege where they have live-in house help to do the cooking or they may not have family. And to even expect that certain members of the family would sort of live their gendered roles and do the cooking. I think those things were just things that companies and even social justice organisations or NGOs did not think about. And it takes me to how little consideration there is for your own teams even when externally what you’re doing is trying to shift and build social change.
Nishma
Thanks, Vandita. Yeah, I think, I think that’s really, really valid. And I really, I’m really glad that you brought up this point about the gendered roles as well. But going back to your question, I think, I think it goes back to what I was saying earlier about how we see our work and how it’s seen as a production or how we, I guess how we measure success in our work. So, success in our work, in our organisations being outputs, being very external facing and I think the combination of the fact that we have, we were already a culture or society that was kind of living online a lot and then the pandemic has aggravated that where everything is online, right? So, everything is about being seen, about posting on social media, about being active online. And like you said, if there are times when that reduces, it makes it seem as though nothing is happening or no work is happening, more importantly, as though nothing of importance is happening. For example, if you are, even if you’re giving your team three weeks off, even that doesn’t mean that nothing of importance is happening, right? We are giving our team three weeks off because it’s in those three weeks that they are going to be able to rest and recuperate, maybe have some random ideas, maybe do something creative so that they can come back and do something of value at the organisation and add value and not be machines that just output courses or output social media posts or whatever it is that you might do, right? Even the example that you gave, being a therapist, you know, being able to rest and take that time off means that you’re not just going into your appointments and saying the words that you know you think you’re supposed to say. It means that you’re able to actually do whatever it is you’re doing and add, add value. And I think that finally takes us all the way back around to again living within capitalistic structures, which we can’t, we can’t automatically just get rid of overnight, but it’s by living in those structures that we think we need to, that our value add in the world is just to be productive and just to be a source of labor rather than thinking about what is it that I’m putting out into the world. And this is not something we have immediate control over either right? We do need to live in the world. We do need to be able to fund ourselves and live our lives. But it’s just, it’s, I think as I say it more as something for workplaces and organisations to keep in mind because they are in a position perhaps of power where they can start to shift that in some way, even if it’s in small ways to begin with. Where they resist, like you did, right? Where they resist external pressures to keep looking like they’re producing and like they’re outputting and actually give people the space and the time that they need to rest and to recalibrate. So yeah.
Sanchi
Thank you so much for sharing that, Nishma and Vandita. And I think what you both brought up is so relevant right now, and I think the very foundation which expects us to constantly give and give in a manner that can be monetized to add capitalistic value, is something that in an approach itself needs to change, right? And I think something that I found very helpful was, when Nishma, you were talking about boundary setting and like so many other people, I also started working my first job during the pandemic and I had a completely virtual onboarding and I had no idea how to not feel guilty about telling somebody that ‘Ok, these are my boundaries, even though we’re at home right now, I can’t be available 24/7’, right? And I did feel that guilt a lot. So, Nishma, I want to know from you how is it that we can effectively enforce these boundaries. And do you think these boundaries would shift in any way in an online workspace for us? And if yes, how can we just manage our way around it?
Nishma
Yeah, really, really good question. Thank you so much for asking me. I want to caveat, I guess my answer, with the fact that this is really, a really difficult thing to do and I wouldn’t want people to feel like guilty about not setting boundaries, right? So, we don’t want to transfer the guilt from one thing to another. So if you find it difficult to set boundaries or you find it uncomfortable, you just find those conversations really, really difficult. I don’t think people should feel guilty about that because that is not their fault. And we have been, even the example that we gave earlier in the podcast where we said that companies set the parameters early on by making people feel like they should be grateful for their jobs. So right in that context, and actually that’s often the case that big companies, corporates as well. In that context, how do we set boundaries, right? How do we do that in a healthy way, in a way that doesn’t cost us our job or at least like the respect of our peers and people in our workplace? So just the caveat that this is really, really difficult and if you feel that you can’t do this without jeopardising perhaps like really important sources of income, it might not be that you can do that immediately and it might be that what you do is you seek community and you seek support, whether that’s in the workplace or outside, to be able to guide you through those spaces while you maybe look for something else or while you manage what’s best for you. But keeping that, keeping that in mind, I think being, I’ve struggled with this quite a lot being able to set boundaries in the what place and just that expectation and I think I’ve even unfortunately gone in the other direction and set, worked, worked so much that set the expectation that I would continue to work that much forever, right? So, I think one of the things here is, for me at least, and I very much speak from a personal, personal lens, is for me it’s been about being able to, um, actually really realistically see, observe what other people’s boundaries are in the workplace and how they set those. And I, with one particular place that I work, I noticed that I was, um, I thought everyone was working all the time. But actually, once they looked a bit deeper and observed people were saying their own boundaries and people were, you know, not replying to emails and they were, they were just replying when they felt like and nothing fell apart. Nothing, nothing happened. And it was my belief that I, that we were all working all the time. And once I looked a little bit closer I was able to see that that actually that wasn’t the case and it was absolutely okay. Like the first time, I think I said to someone like ‘Oh’, that you know, ‘I’m not available those three days but I could do this other day’ and I didn’t just immediately say yes to wanting to do a call, someone wanting to do a call. Literally, nothing happened. Everyone was like ‘Oh yeah, fine cool. We’ll do Friday’. And so again, but with this with the context of course that it depends on many others, you know, your position in the organisation and your relationships with people. But one of the things I just like to say to people is do you actually think about what others are doing and whether you’re one of the few people who are just feeling so guilty about needing to work all the time? And I, in terms of practical things, I’ve just let people know that these are my work times or sometimes on depending on how I, in what dynamic I work with people, I’ll let them know and then I’ll put it in my signature of my emails that these are the times that I will generally be working or available. Same with WhatsApp for the few people that I work with on WhatsApp, just letting them, having that in my bio that these are the times that I work.
Currently, because it’s the new year still in my head, I’ve also had a lot of backlog of emails. So, I still have my out, my autoresponder on which says that, you know, I’ll be going through things slowly, I’ll be allocating time to time to when I can check my emails so that I can make sure that I’m still actually doing the things I love and contributing in important or substantive ways. And I’ve just left that responder on my email. So, people know, again that’s not always available to everyone but these are just some of the things that I’ve been doing. But I, I do hesitate to give too many tips because I think it really, it like Vandita said earlier, I think it really, really depends on the context of your workplace and I think it’s actually a lot of this responsibility is on them rather than on individual, especially if you’re junior team members. And so I guess what I would leave with is that if you’re in a position of power in an organisation, just do what you can, like set an example. If you’re able to change policy or change the way that your workplace operates, then do that because seeing, being able to see more senior members of the team, do that by seeing senior members of the team say, ‘Oh, I’m busy today’ or ‘I’m actually, you know, I’m doing a social thing this evening’ that just gives confidence to the people who are more junior who have just joined the organisation. And also, obviously creates the culture of the workplace, which is what we’re talking about, I guess at the end of the day.
Sanchi
Thanks a lot, Nishma. I found that really helpful and I hope it resonates with our listeners as well. And I’m going to try and work some of those things out at the place that I work at. So really thanks for that. And just to wrap all this discussion up, I want to ask you if you have any words of encouragement or tips to help us out if any of us are in a toxic work environment right now. So, any tips for our listeners on that?
Nishma
I think the biggest, biggest tip I would give is something that I touched upon before because I’ve seen this across every single organisation that I’ve worked at and this is across sectors, corporate, social justice bases, is don’t, do not hesitate to reach out to someone whether it’s a friend, whether it’s a colleague that you have an okay relationship with. Obviously test the waters if it’s a colleague and see how it’s going, but I say it like this because it, I think one of you mentioned it earlier that it has been an absolute lifesaver for me to know that there is someone I can just go to and speak with who, maybe even if they don’t have the same experience as me, but believes me when I say that I am maybe overwhelmed or that something is toxic. Like being able to be believed I think is so much more important than I perhaps expected before. And I think you mentioned as well that you know having a, having someone that you can talk to and find camaraderie with is so important. And I think I think in a space, in spaces, in the context of work where unfortunately we are gaslit so much into thinking that our feelings, our mental health, how we feel in our body is wrong or exaggerated or we have the wrong perspective. I think having people around you, having a community who can believe you and say no you are right, no, your experience is important, for me was the biggest thing. So, I, that’s kind of the tip that I would leave you with where you do have power as well like I think you can powerfully take that action, whereas you know maybe other things depending on the context of your work may not be as available to you.
Vandita
Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Nishma. Both the tips that you’ve shared for people listening in and in general helping us develop an understanding of what a toxic workplace can look like, and especially something that you’ve shared about. No, it’s not really an individual’s responsibility to correct for something that they are suffering through. If I am at a toxic workspace, it isn’t my responsibility to fix everything. Living in the imperfect conditions that we do, we might recommend that individuals try to find ways to balance it out, draw boundaries, etc, but it is eventually the responsibility of the organisation to correct these measures, and perhaps for collectives of individuals within spaces to arise, maybe organise, which is also something that say when we see with Google organising right? We see a lot of their employees organising and I hear a lot about, but why do they need to do that? Aren’t unions about fair wages, etc, which they are probably being paid, but even expanding our understanding of that, organising, forming unions, etc. are not just about wages or about economic benefits at an organisation. It’s about rights. It’s about responsibility towards the world and also about creating cultures and workspaces that are nurturing for people and that do not, like, push them down a toxic hellhole for the lack, for the lack of a better phrase. Thank you so much for sharing that with us.
Sanchi
Thanks, Vandita, and thank you so much for being on this podcast episode with us, Nishma. I have taken so much away from it. So really, thanks a lot for this conversation.
Nishma
Thank you so much. I’ve learnt so much from both of you as well. So, thank you for having me. And I’ve had a really interesting conversation as well.
Vandita
Until next time then, stay with us on our journey towards a radically kinder world.
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For more delightful discussions on practicing feminism and fostering communities of care, check out the other episodes of the Nurturing Radical Kindness podcast! Until then, here’s a reflection activity for you to mull over.
| Reflection Activity – Navigating Toxic Workplaces Take some time to reflect on your upcoming workweek. Notice the moments or actions that leave you feeling drained, undervalued, or affect your focus. Alongside these, also pay attention to the things that nurture and energize you at work. Jot these down throughout the week. This exercise can help you recognize if there are any toxic patterns or practices in your workplace, and what they may be. With this awareness, you can begin to explore setting boundaries and making shifts towards more nurturing experiences. If you hold a position of influence, consider how you can use these insights to create a positive impact and foster a supportive, balanced environment within your organization. |
About the Nurturing Radical Kindness Podcast
Radical Kindness is the ethos and practice that forms and informs One Future Collective. It guides our constitution as an organisation and is the core value that guides our work. It is a politics of love, fighting against apathy and hopelessness. Often being ‘hard’, ‘stoic’ or ‘rigid’, is considered crucial for social change, and it is this very notion that radical kindness challenges. It espouses that being kind, compassionate and loving in our activism can still pave the way for dissent, defiance, growth and rebuilding. It is a tool we seek to use to rebuild our systems with care, nurturance and justice at their core. It allows us to hold various stakeholders, including ourselves, accountable in how we interact with ourselves and our communities and to build towards a lived reality of social justice collaboratively.
Hosted by Sanchi Mehra and Vandita Morarka of One Future Collective, this podcast attempts to unpack what it means to be radically kind and how we can practice it through conversations with members of the One Future Collective community.