Design and technology go hand in hand. Good designs are accessible and inclusive, but just how many designs are truly ‘good?’ How does design intersect with technology? What is Design justice and how do we situate ourselves in a world where heteronormativity permeates through digital and offline borders? How can we move towards more equitable design for all environments around us? In this episode, co-host Sakthisree is joined by Sanskruti Landage, an aspiring Design sector professional who is currently a student at the design institute of IIT-Bombay. She believes that provoking one’s thought process is an important element in life and tries to portray the same through her work both in functional design & circular economy. Together, they delve into the topic of Design and its intersection with technology, seeking to understand how important design plays into accessing and creating just & inclusive space.
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Sakthishree
In this episode, we will be delving into the topic of design and its intersection with technology and to explore this with me today- we have a very special guest and a dear friend of mine, Sanskruti. A curious soul, and a wonderful storyteller with a deep interest in systems- Sanskruti is an aspiring design sector professional who is highly passionate about concurrent fields. She believes that provoking one’s thought process is an important element in life and tries to portray the same through her work, further escalating her interest in research. She worked in Ladakh to understand the decentralised nature of design after her Bachelors in Industrial design. She is an IIHS Urban fellow, an OFC fellow of 2020 (which is where we met), and currently, she is pursuing her Masters in Communication Design at IIT Bombay, which she got in because she was bored and just attempted the exam for fun- clearly telling you how creative and smart she must be.
Hi Sanskruti, how are you?
Sanskruti
Hi Sakthi, thank you for inviting me over here. I am super excited and honoured to be a part of this podcast and looking forward to discussing about some things that I am so passionate about.
Sakthishree
The honour is all mine, Sanskruti. And I have personally seen some of the work that you have done are doing currently. And it’s quite inspiring. Would you like to share with us your personal journey so far and how you ended up in the design world? What really brings you here and what’s your own personal narrative in embarking on this design path for justice?
Sanskruti
Honestly Sakthi to tell the truth, I never thought I would be a designer because I was, what we say, a notorious person back then, that I thought I will end up becoming something altogether very different. I wanted to join the Air Force where I wanted to get into Economics because I really liked that because of my commerce background. And it is just that I happened to stumble upon this career because I was choosing from one sector to another at such a fast pace. Someone just told me, “Why don’t you get into product designing because every project is different?” So, you can, like, shift between one sector to another and that is what interested me. So, this is the story of why I ended up taking design and once I got knee-deep into the sector, I realised that I just love it because of how interdisciplinary it is. And after a period of time, working in the design sector, I realised that I loved to do research and learn new things, do something which is very innovative. Thus, I went to Ladakh and I wanted to understand that how rural areas work when it comes to design. Over there, something different happened with me that I started understanding that how does decentralised design work and how people in such small communities are so innovative with so few resources at disposal. After I felt that being brought up in a very urban area, it was time for me to understand how urban really works. I came across this fellowship named as Urban Fellows Program, which is run by the Indian Institute of Human Settlements- it’s in Bangalore. So there, it’s a very interdisciplinary course where people from different sectors come together and try to understand how the city works and I was just blown away by that because, during my Bachelors, I never understood how cities function. We, as designers, are making products. We are interacting with users, but we don’t understand the underlying fabric of the place which we are designing for, and in the process, I understood, not like understood, but I came across concepts like identity, marginalised people. To be honest, I sleep with three layers of privilege and it was an eye-opener for me to understand that there are people out there who are literally ignored when things are designed. And I felt, as a designer- it is my responsibility to dwell deeper and understand their problems because if I don’t know about my users- how am I gonna be able to design, right? And it’s just this perfect timing, you know, that I came across OFC’s fellowship and it was a yes in a heartbeat that I wanted to apply for this fellowship. And to be honest, I have not been disappointed a bit; I am so grateful that the things which I learnt about people and how ethical design should be working, and how design justice works- it just further made my practice more rich and valuable. And then lockdown happened of course and I was just thinking now what do I do about all the knowledge I have achieved and I felt that it was time for me to tell my peers that this is how we should be looking at design, not just as something which is aesthetic. So, I thought that it was time for me to do my Masters and as you said, I was bored and I applied for this entrance exam and I just got through. But I am able to further share this knowledge that I have gotten through this fellowship and make a difference in my sector by making people understand that design is not just what you think it is. So, long story short, I like to bore and dwell and explore different subject matters all around.
Sakthisree
Thanks for explaining that and taking us through your journey, Sanskruti. I think I am gonna go to the most basic question I think is the golden question of this episode being, what really is design and I am really curious to understand what this means especially for a person who has been working in this sector for long? And for different people, I know it seems to constitute different nuances to it- it is design. Is design about forming solutions creatively? Or does it involve artwork? Or what is design? Because I know a lot of people out there have different perspectives. For example, even my own parents- the other day we were having a discussion about design and for them- design is something that’s got to do with making something better, you know, the aesthetics part of it. And I also know that there is another perspective of people saying that design is only for creative people. So, Sanskruti- could you elaborate on this like what is design and is it really only for creative people?
Sanskruti
That’s a very basic question, Sakthi. I think everyone asks and everyone even right now from the sector doesn’t really have a hard and fast answer to it. What I think is that design is about usability, functionality and desirability. So, if a thing is just functional- it can be engineered. If a thing is desirable – it can be artwork. But when it’sall these three things, then you can say it’s design. And I think this is the simplest way to go around with it. Just to give you an example- think of an artist creating something where tools are paints, brushes, which they are utilizing to come up with something for example on a canvas. So the painting is the product, the tools are the brushes, and the artist- their idea is design. So, design isn’t a tool, which people usually have a misconception about that, I will use design to create something. To use something is the tool, design is nothing but the idea. The way you approach things. I hope this gives you a better understanding of it.
Shakthisree
Thanks Sanskruti for explaining that. I think that it is a very valuable perspective. And you know I have somehow always believed that technology is a form of design- like from algorithms that run into the kind of features it provides, I have always been of the idea that technology and design go hand in hand, but what I hear from you right now- I am also coming to understand that technology is the product out of someone’s design in their mind right? And I remember reading this article by Amy K. Jo, a professor from University of Washington. She’s a professor of programming and design there. And they talked of having observed two paradigms of design, one where design is centralized amidst a small, private and exclusionary team that produces exquisite objects and experience, such as what Apple does for example. But on the other side, you have egalitarian approaches of companies like Mozilla and like who take in input from various sources but produce, sometimes incoherent, but nevertheless somewhat of an inclusive experience. And I think you can call the former almost a design dictatorship where a singular vision is carried through based on a stakeholder needs, while the other could be thought of design democracy. Although time consuming, has some form of diversity of perspectives, accommodated and personally in the technology space, I’ve seen more of a design dictatorship rather than a design democracy where a vision is just carried through without necessarily considering the opinions of the people that it really affects. Right?
Like another example that comes to my mind is I remember I was talking to a professor of mine who had visited Europe for an international conference, and he mentioned how when he tried washing his hands, using the automatic soap dispenser, he couldn’t use it because the soap dispenser wouldn’t work for his darker skin tone or at least it took some time for it to work. But his colleague, on the other hand, a light-skinned person, was able to get it to immediately work. And of course, this may seem to some people a very small and slight inconvenience, but I believe nevertheless, that it is a true manifestation of some form of racial bias, right, that’s been incorporated in the design and this has ended up creating a situation where a certain group of people are not able to access something as simple as soap. And intriguingly, this almost showcases to me at least, colonial undertones of a person from a global majority nation not being able to access and use something that a Global North citizen easily could.
And this also brings to my mind the book ‘Design Justice’ by Sasha Costanza-Chock, where they describe the situation aptly saying, “the user is, for a brief moment, reminded of their subordinate position within the matrix of domination.”
Sanskruti
And to be honest, for those listening it, it might be worthwhile shortly to understand what the matrix of domination is about, since it’s one of those mainly concepts that can help us understand discussions around power and oppression. So matrix of domination is a concept from the black feminist sociologist Patricia Hill Collins to refer to race, class and gender being interrelated and interlocking systems of oppression. This is very closely linked to the concept of intersectionality, which establishes the fact that oppression does not come in one particular aspect or another. But often through various interdependent societal systems, for example, being a woman may place one in a certain position within societal power structures that dictate what principles, penalties and benefits first may have access to. But being a South Asian woman from a Global Majority country contains the aspect of race adding into the oppression as well. And of course, Patricia notes that additional systems of oppression can ensue, depending upon the place and the type of society we are part of. In the case of India, apart from race, class and gender, caste and religion are definitely systems of oppression that add into our matrix of domination.
Sakthisree
Thanks for explaining that, Sanskruti. And I think especially with technology and the design of technology, right, there’s often these exclusionary spaces created with the power structures exponentiated like the same matrix of domination that you were talking about and I also agree with the example that you brought forth. And sometimes I see a lot of such examples in my own life, like the Western social media websites, for example, and the way they’ve been built to suit individualism and often oppressive voices over marginalized narratives. And there’s often shadowbanning of marginalized communities and a very real risk for certain communities to get affected through AI bias and facial recognition technologies. Another one of Instagram’s internal community safety policies is automating the process of shadowbanning an account after it reaches a certain reporting threshold, regardless of the report’s validity or whether or not it even infringes on, you know, their public community guidelines. And I think this is a very, I mean, it is a double-edged sword for sure, but there have been a lot of cases of misuse where people unnecessarily report an account just to oppress their, you know, narratives around sexuality or body image.
Sanskruti
So are you trying to say here that injustice comes from A-the process designed to address injustice, which is done haphazardly, or B-the design of a platform in itself that is not inclusive enough to accommodate communities or allow for their work to reach people out there? If the design of the platform is not about allowing people to voice out their experiences, does it then serve more as an echo chamber? Almost an industry of monotone of the majority overall true storytelling medium for those that deserve to be heard?
Sakthishree
Well, I would think that it is both, to be honest. I mean, I think there’s a real struggle and concern in navigating majority spaces and I say majority, but these so-called majority spaces are usually catered for global North profiles like cis, white, able-bodied men right? And I think for women and queer folks, there have been notable challenges while working with technology and navigating these digital realms. A very intriguing thought that comes to my mind right now as we’re speaking, is in the context of immersive game technologies, especially with Mark Zuckerberg’s announcement of Metaverse and the ongoing pandemic, incentivizing the creation of virtual environments, I often wonder if we’re just going to be replicating, if not worsening, the biases that we already have in reality into like an AR/VR format, right? And I remember reading this article by Leslie Cruz from the Black Public Media who mentioned how games such as Pokemon Go Live motivating people of colour to enter historically white neighbourhoods is one way of marginalized communities feeling uncomfortable and unsafe while using these emerging media forms. And I think the same can be said for people in India as well, where we often have these demarcated areas that are religion and caste-based as well, right? So how are we as a community, then going to experience these borderless technologies when in reality there exists not a border but an entire wall, making it difficult for people to functionally use this technology the way it’s supposed to be used? And who is to say that this metaverse would not have the same design of unsafe echo chambers within now being transferred as words in a Facebook post to a virtual avatar doing so. And I know we touched upon it a bit before in our conversation, but I think this may be a really good point to bring about the concept of design justice, because I did note that you brought it forth late before. So, what is design justice? And what are some of the principles that you see imbibed in the process of establishing this, Sanskruti?
Sanskruti
So rather than giving you definitions, I’ll try to elaborate on the subject matter by giving you an example of this project I worked on with UNICEF, Urban Informality and Child Care in Global South. So Sakthi, in this project, I was supposed to create a book to educate UNICEF staff on how the informal sector works and how it affects child care. In the informal sector, women’s ability to work is severely constrained by a lack of available childcare facilities as the nature of the work, as is informal sector, is diverse. Some interventions might work and some won’t due to its placelessness and implementation. It’s important to think of the mother and child together right? While designing policies, people often come up with maternal leave, paternal leave as a solution. But because of the nature of work, taking a leave means compromising on one’s meal of the day. Imagine that a mother is taking a leave for work if they are going to be earning Rs 200-300 per day. The father and mother combined, if even one of them takes the leave, they will be reducing the income that further results in the mother being underfed, which is going to affect the child’s growth. That is which is very important in the initial months for the child because if a child is unfed, like, if the child is not given proper nutrition, their initial brain growth won’t be of that as it’s supposed to be and their overall health gets hampered. So designers or practitioners often overlook this correlation, and thus the interventions are hardly of utility to the users, whether it’s the mother and the child and thus there is a need for us to develop sensitivity to close this critical gap in policy. So it’s important to understand it’s not about solving the problem, but about understanding the context and lived experiences. Users’ culture is fundamental to the development of any product or service as it plays a role in the acceptance of the product, service or system design. Thinking should be socially inclusive and ever-evolving and think design justice is all about that. That you’d have to understand the user and what place they belong to, what is their culture, where they are located and how they are working and what environment they are part of it. So yeah, I think design justice works around all these parameters.
Sakthishree
Thanks for explaining that, Sanskruti. And I love how you brought out that, um, design is not just about solving problems, but rather also understanding the context around it, right? And as you were explaining, I started thinking about a really intriguing case study from the design justice program, um, where in 2011, uh, the Gates Foundation launched a design challenge for developing a new kind of toilet innovation for those who did not have access to such affordable sanitation facilities. And I remember reading that, between 2011 and 2018, the foundation apparently invested more than $200 million in research for such technology. And think about $2 million of it went towards Indian research as well. And clearly, this is a lot of money, right? And a lot of effort as well. But also distinctly remember reading what Urvashi Prasad, a significant member of the Niti Aayog, had to say about this, where she argued that we shouldn’t be necessarily seeking new technologies to solve the problem, but rather efficient use of the already present solutions, such as the community ownership of existing infrastructure or the monthly passes for those residing in urban slums and so on. And a distinct line from her that I would like to highlight is, ‘We must keep our eyes not on the competition and prizes, but on the less glamorous work of encouraging adoption in usage and maintenance’. And another intriguing point brought forth was that even assuming that we were able to get, you know, these extremely well-built, innovative, highly sanitized toilet technology in community spaces, studies showed that people would still not want to send their daughters to these community-shared toilets, even if it’s well, sanitized because of the fear of sexual harassment. Ultimately, I wonder what does it really then mean to design for well-being, right? Um, what are the things that we need to consider for it? Because clearly there isn’t a single solution. Can you give us examples? Sanskriti where in your experience design has helped communities fight the power structures in place and empower them in dismantling, you know, the matrix of domination, for example, being there.
Sanskruti
So taking from this example which you gave about the toilets and how their design was such that women were still scared or were hesitant about utilizing it at a particular hour, it reminds me of this composting toilets in Ladakh. When I was working there, I saw that there is such a decentralized nature to it. So the thing is, every household has its own composting toilet, uh, which further they use as manure for their farms. So when sanitation is done in such a way that there is no usage of water, they are being very resource responsible when it comes to using the resources; it’s environment friendly. What happens is the manual, the idea of manual scavenging is removed because every individual takes the responsibility of handling their own systems. Now here the matrix of domination comes into the picture because every individual out there is managing their own in-house composting toilet. They are also trying to be responsible towards the resources which are available in that place. For example, in Ladakh there is scarcity of water and in winters, of course, the temperature falls so low that, uh, there is just frozen water and you cannot really use it. So the idea of understanding different aspects of their space and how different people will be interacting with each other, I think that really helps in dismantling this matrix of domination. Through a designer’s perspective, I felt that it was very interesting because we don’t think of something like this in urban spaces. It only happens in such, uh, places, remote places where they are not dependent on other people to do their work. And I felt that this is such an important takeaway that why always do we put our work on others when we can do it by ourselves as well? That just means that we are designing for our well-being. And when the onus comes on us that we are to do things for ourselves, we do it better. And I think this notion really helps and empowers people. Don’t you think?
Sakthishree
Yes, Sanskruti. I think that’s a very interesting point that you brought forward, especially the connection between need and design and the dismantling of oppressive structures right? Often think there’s no action per se when there’s no need. And I think design is that one thing that’s able to bridge the gap together and which also brings me to the notion of design and technology with technology being the need for a particular problem at hand. And, you know, it’s true that technology is permeating ubiquitously into all aspects of our lives and I really want to quickly bring your attention to what you think about technology in regards to design. And do you think that the situation right now, the way that, you know, technology is being designed is all right, it’s going the way that it’s supposed to go or you know, that you feel like it could be done better. Would you share some examples also to highlight your thoughts on the same?
Sanskruti
So, the first thing which comes to my mind is social media and media and how social media utilizes the concept of good design that is equal to aesthetic and well functioning. So people usually just think that if something looks better and if it’s functioning better, that means that its credibility is more. But that is just not true because there are so many layers to design, right? Creating designs which are addictive are ethically wrong and that’s what exactly social media is doing. It’s like a Potemkin. So what is a Potemkin? It’s like creating an artificial larger-than-life facade, which is very enticing and it invites the people. But once you enter the gate, you see that there’s nothing to it at the back and think technology is doing the same when it comes to social media, that visually pleasing aesthetically good designs are created, very nice interactions are created, and people feel that, ‘Oh, this is so nice, this is so interesting. I like the way it works’ and people start utilizing it and later they realize that they’ve just got addicted to it. And the designers sometimes are aware of this and think this is where design and technology are shaking hands, but not in a good way. Similarly, like blockchain, if you see that, how inviting it is, but at the same time it’s very confusing. People are creating these aesthetic designs of these interactive videos and making people feel that blockchain is new and it’s going to be here and it’s going to stay. But the design is such that it is very confusing. It’s still creating a huge, larger-than-life wall in front of us where we want to enter it, but we cannot. And I think that’s what’s happening with technology and design lately.
Sakthishree
I mean, it’s interesting that you brought the blockchain example. So I’m in the tech field and I’ve been doing my own research on blockchain, right? And I honestly think that blockchain is that technology that may be fighting against the usual capitalistic principles that we have, trying to really decentralize power amongst the masses and allowing for a more, for the lack of a better word, like tangible value, through an intangible asset. Um, you know, in the electric network per se. So there is some sort of benefit to it, right? But I also understand that there’s this other side of it being the carbon emissions that come out of the whole blockchain system in itself. And I think that’s where I have my conflict arising that struggles to understand how does one strike a balance between both and if it is possible, how will that look like? But also I will acknowledge that I know a lot of people are currently now trying to bring about more greener ways of the of keeping the blockchain network up and running. I believe they’re moving towards more, you know, renewable energy resources and so on. And I’m and think I’m going to be super interested in seeing how this is going to further pan out in the future. But maybe I’ll just go into my next question now after that thought, being, would you say that there’s then a gap between technologists and good designers, and if you were to pin the gap, where would you see this gap being at?
Sanskruti
I think education is something which we often overlook. The understanding that there is a difference between theory and practice is not well acknowledged because whatever we learn in our institutes, colleges is very different than what is happening in practice, that is, in real-world scenarios. I won’t say that what we are taught in institutes, colleges is wrong or what is practiced is wrong, but it’s just that people don’t really overlap these different aspects and people just overlook it. And this is what happens when designers don’t really understand this gap and they don’t try to bridge it, or there are very few designers who understand it, and then they work further to really reduce it. And I think those are the good designers because the understanding that we don’t know how economics, finance, policies, rules and regulations and different aspects of even environment works. It just like when you are as a designer, you are just focusing on how to manufacture thing, how it would look, how it will be desirable or functional, or how its utility will work. But you don’t see that that product is a part of a larger group of products. It’s not functioning by itself. And I think this is something which is very important and should be touched upon in education sector and I think this is what I think is the major gap which I would like to pin upon.
Sakthishree
I mean, I definitely see that applicable for the technology space. And I really do love that you brought out education here because another thought that comes to my mind is how, you know, you have all these concepts like human-centered design and design thinking and other principles out there that seems to be used a lot in like mainstream media or in the corporate sector and I don’t really see it being used as much in the social sector. Maybe I may be wrong because I’m biased by my own lived experiences of the same. Do you think this is true? And if so, do you think that the social sector and the development sector has better practices than the ones being used, for example, in the mainstream space? Or do you think that they need these principles in place for their own work?
Sanskruti
To be honest, human-centered design is the basics of designing. I just don’t understand why people try to utilise that terminology in a fancier way, because if you are going to design something, it is going to be for humans. And if you say that it is human-centered, it just doesn’t make sense. Because if you are designing, if you are not designing for humans, then who are you designing for? It’s an underlying thing, right? That is, it is by humans, for humans and the other elements around. But also to add on to that question, I think everything depends on the understanding of the brief and its relation to outcome and impact. So, for example, in the social sector, we often overlook the importance of design and we focus more on other aspects like implementation, which is understandable given the need. Like for example, I was working with an organization and I happened to get a project which was a decade long, and I entered that project work when it was almost about to end. The involvement of a designer, that is me, in this project was at the end, but not as a designer. The only thing I was asked to do was to create a report. Luckily I happened to go through the whole project and realized that even if it was a design brief, the approach utilized was not that of a design. It was just getting things done, making things resilient in a way. And I think that is what falls short because this was a big organization. Let me tell you, this was not an organization, social organization, which was running low on funds. So, I think the the understanding of social design and corporate design and me trying to create these two different entities out there is a bit messed up because design thinking is something which is needed everywhere. Even if it is to do with a social sector, we are trying to design for something for which is there is a cause, but there is a cause even in the corporate sector, right? If you have to think of it, they want to sell their products in social sector. They want to create an impact on the life of people. But people just think that, no, no, it’s something to do with the whole glamour or aesthetic part of it. And that’s why they overlook it and think if social sector can take hints from corporate sector with regards to design, I think that would help a lot. I know it’s a bit bitter to really accept, but that is how it is. I think social sector can really, really do better if they start understanding how small small things, if designed well, how great an impact it can create.
Sakthishree
Definitely. And also just coming back to technology again here, right. Especially even in relation to the whole corporate setup that we were talking about. I’ve often seen how everyone just trying to solve everything with some sort of algorithm, perhaps at the expense of other better solutions that may exist, which are not necessarily these digital algorithms. And I know the use of these are well-intentioned and but I believe that they do result in unintended consequences. And in this whole hype of trying to figure out how one can use an algorithm, um, organizations often skip over the most important questions. I feel like, you know, will the introduction of this algorithm reducing or reinforcing an inequity already present in the system or um, or what exact bias are we exponentiating with this particular technology? For example, Sanskruti how would you propose we can redefine this process of creation and include a better design system in place, especially in the context of technology?
Sanskruti
So to answer your question, I think it is important to keep the user at the center. Many times when we are trying to solve something, we end up approaching the user after the first two, three steps and by then we have already built our assumptions and biases and think that just increases the possibility of error made with algorithm, with technology or without it. So it’s important that we start with the user first and ask their needs, then rather building our own biases and dissecting the problem at hand. And then approaching the user.
Sakthishree
Yeah, that makes sense. And even in the same context that you’re talking about, I wonder if you know the so-called biases that you said. So can we establish, can we circumvent these biases and establish a fairer tech processes by increasing the diversity of the teams, for example? I mean, this is something that I’ve been really trying to explore, right? And when I did try experimenting with it, even with a diversified team, I observed that we’re all at the end working towards one goal. And that goal is not necessarily inclusive in the context of the organization. Perhaps one is part of. Right. You know, even if I were to have a group of ten people of diversity in place, if at the end we’re still going to work for the same stakeholder with their own purpose there, I still see the biases being there. So how do you think, honestly, that diversifying the community of designers would enable more fairer and inclusive community practices, or is there a better way to do so? Because I think that would really help me as well.
Sanskruti
I agree that diversifying the team all the time may not have unless we really place the user at the center, but people who are most adversely affected by design decisions about the visual culture, new technologies, the planning of our communities or the structure of our political and economic systems tend to have the least influence on those decisions and how they are made by building a diverse team with regards to by understanding different cultures, racially different team, gender wise, in terms of ability, age and even education. It helps more perspective, reduces the possibility of error and creates resilient, ever evolving outcomes. So, it’s important that we address the bias which comes from one’s lived experiences in the respective sector. What I mean by that is that when I am from a particular sector, I have already established an assumption within myself about the one who is in front of me. So, when a team is such a mix and interdisciplinary one, we end up helping each other break the stereotypes. And I think that further results in a decentralized design because you are not working from one perspective, but also from different perspectives, from different sectors, from different kind of people.
Sakthishree
So in summary, if I understand it right, the diversity in teams is critical as long as together we enable the user to be at the centre of what we do, right? And it’s also important that we include these various perspectives to be played out loud into the entire process that we’re creating, or that’s what I’ve understood and I think it is very valuable and thanks for explaining that so wonderfully and coming to that point of decentralized design that you brought forward. I really do think that it’s an important aspect of inclusion and, you know, this also brings me to how sometimes amidst the decenter design narrative, certain people aren’t given the credibility of a designer by the mainstream industry, you know, for example, for like DIY designers or as we say in India, jugaad. So, these people are usually not really called designers, right? And I know as an example, there’s been this long history of nurses doing their own medical device innovations and care process innovations. However, despite nurses being the point of care, many at times funding for the same tends to go instead to doctors. There’s in fact a well-known lab called Little Device by MIT that has been working to set up maker spaces for nurses inside hospital to share their own innovations and to give them the autonomy to take credit to the wonderful creations that they do. I love the line that they have in their website being ‘by radically democratizing the tools of medical creation, we seek to enable frontline patients and providers to invent answers to disease burdens’. In your experience so far Sanskruti, for example, in your experience or your time going around the country seeking design lessons, have you come across such examples of design being done in a very organic way as an organic exercise with purpose, yet with no credibility or the formality of funding or recognition being given to them? What are your thoughts of the same?
Sanskruti
That reminds me of this project named as Daily Delli-santi which we worked upon in IIHS. It was about this particular market area where people were trying to find loops in the system by coming up with innovative ways to utilize the space. Now these were mobile vendors. Let me tell you, people who live in such a precarious working situation where authorities can come at any time and ask them to move, and that might impact their business on a really large scale. So what those people used to do is that they because their setup was on wheels, they would come up with very different ways, creative, innovative ways to display their products. Now, what they used to do, they used to stay within the parameters of rules and regulations. That was that you cannot squat somewhere and display your products. You cannot occupy the street or the footpath space. So here they are having their work as in their display space on their vehicle itself. So, people can interact with the products they can see, they can utilize like and try and try to work around with it. But at the same time, the moment the authorities would come, they would just move and the authorities were well aware of this.
Now, think of this. A market is made by the people who are in informal sector because these people bring this X factor. The products which you get in this small small shops, these vendors is something which you don’t get in your regular shops. So a market is made by this like for example, flower sellers, vegetable sellers, this small small products which are household-based. So the authorities don’t really want these people to go away, but they also want them to not occupy space because under the rules, if you occupy a space for a particular given period of time, it becomes yours. And it’s very interesting to see that people understand it. It’s not just that they are not aware of it and it has nothing to do with education as well. So us thinking that just because people are not educated doesn’t mean that doesn’t mean that they are not designers. They are designers in their own way because they are thinking about all of this in a very circular way. They are considering each and every aspect of it and I think this is very interesting because we often overlook things like this. How many of us will be knowing that these are the ways we can go around with it, go around with rules, regulations, authorities to think of it.
Sakthishree
I completely hear you. Sanskruti. I think it’s important to note that these designers do not work in silos or in isolation. Rather, they work and navigate tirelessly through these various structures and systems in place, right? And as you mentioned, almost in a circular way, where one action leads to another. And this reminds me of something I remember having this wonderful session during the OFF Fellowship where you walked us through the concept of circular economies. Could you maybe elaborate to our listeners on what circular economy is? Ah and what it would mean to design a circular economy? I think this is a great point to bring this concept in with the, you know, with with the question we just addressed.
Sanskruti
Now, circular economy is an approach of identifying and considering every aspect of planning and manufacturing something. Its core is based in production and consumption. If you are planning to build a house in Nagpur to think of and you want to build it with using stone named Asambhav, which is usually found in western coastal region of Maharashtra. At first you might think you are using a sustainable material, but from circular economy’s perspective you have to consider its hidden carbon cost as well. Here, in this case it’s transportation because you’re getting it from the Western coastal region to Nagpur. And even if it’s a sustainable material, there is fuel charges involved. Having an understanding of where you are procuring material from and how its maintenance will be taken care of not only reduces the carbon cost but also increases its sustainable resilience. Right? It’s just this journey of selecting raw materials to consumption, to recycling it further. It doesn’t only help the planet, but also consumer and the producer.
Sakthishree
Thanks for explaining this, Sanskruti. And I think this is very relevant to technology as well. I know in our episode with another guest, Aparna, we were just talking about how even technology has these hidden carbon costs behind it of how, you know, sometimes it’s intriguing that when we talk about environmental justice and when we talk about climate actions, there’s a lot of people who come forth with innovation being as a solution for it. But the very same platform that I use to voice out my movement for environmental protection causes the environment destruction, right? Like every message that I put on social media or every minute that I use the Internet for something, I know for a fact that behind there’s an X amount of carbon cost that comes with it. And I think circular economy as a whole is it, is it a concept that’s been adopted, um, widely, um Sanskruti because I somehow don’t really seem to come across that term a lot in India at least.
Sanskruti
Yes. The thing is that people don’t, it’s, it’s utilized, people are aware of it, but not about the not of the term. So it’s just like, you know how a particular thing works but you don’t know its textual definition. It’s a very gray space to be honest. It’s actually not about sustainability to that extent, but it is also good for the manufacturer. Think of it if I am procuring a material from, say for example, Norway, and if I’m procuring the same material from, say, Singapore, the one which is geographically closer to me, it’s just better because in larger run, if I have to keep procuring that material from this particular near distant geography, it will just save me a lot of money, right? So when you are supposed to build things, if you consider each and every element out there, when you club it all together, you are saving a lot of money. So if it’s if it’s acting like a candy to the manufacturer, to the producer, that, yes, you are saving money, why not? Why not use it in that way? But for us, we know that it is also acting towards sustainability. It’s also reducing a lot of carbon footprint. So, it’s a very win-win situation.
Sakthishree
Yes, as you said, that you don’t come across it that often because well, people don’t discuss about it as much as they should be or even designers are not taught about this to think of, imagine if I’m told that what material would really help reduce the manufacturing cost. And if I’m pitching it to my boss that see this is the design I’ve come up with and this will save you this much money, why wouldn’t he agree upon it? But we just don’t know that and think it. This is what I was talking about, right? This gap in theory and practice in education, this is exactly what it is. I didn’t stumble upon this concept just by chance. I happened to study this from one place to another and then further delve deeper into it and that’s how I realized that how it works.
Sakthishree
Well, thanks for really sharing this concept with our listeners today. Sanskriti. I think it is very valuable and it’s something valuable that I’m taking with me as well to be very mindful of the decisions or the even the design choices I make in terms of perhaps a program that I want to do or something that I want to create. I think it’s good for me to keep in mind what are the costs of it outside of just the monetary costs, right? Like what are the environmental costs of it? What are the societal costs of it as well in terms of the design justice topic that we were talking about? And this has been a great conversation. I think we’ve really gone through so many examples and so many, um, case studies and, and had a lot of fun, Sanskruti And with that, would you like to share with our listeners any reflection exercises just as a conclusion?
Sanskruti
The feeling is mutual, just that I come across so many ideas and concepts the moment I start talking about design that I can’t stop. I had to literally make myself realize that I’m talking and it’s a time-limited podcast and I didn’t want to what you say bombard our listeners with too many concepts at the same time. But what if I have to say something? I would say educate, organize and agitate All ways, question the systems around you as they are built by someone and majority of the time they are built for benefiting the hierarchy and oppressing the marginalized as they are intentionally designed. They can be redesigned as well, right? It’s in our hands. So I want our users, our listeners, oh my goodness. The perks of being a designer- that everyone is a user, but it’s in our hands and we should be thinking about things like this from a very multidisciplinary approach.
Sakthishree
Thank you, our dear listeners, for listening to us, taking the time out to listen to us today and the conversation that we had. We really appreciate the support and the love that you often show us. We’re really looking forward to continuing this journey with other exciting guests in topics seeking on how we can make this world kinder. Bye bye bye. See you.
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About Byte the Injustice Podcast
In “Byte the Injustice”, the deep streams of data and technology are explored and dismantled through an intersectional feminist lens, especially in the context of the Global South to inspire conversations, bring awareness, and the imperative need for more equitable and just technological decisions in our world. The podcast hosts prominent guests from across fields such as education, media, environment, and much more on topics at the intersection of technology and justice.