Episode 5: Changing Narratives
Mrinalini, Pooja and illesha meet in a cafe, to trace their stories –the ones they have been told, the ones they have lived, and the ones they would like to tell about leadership and heroism. As young women, they feel deeply alienated and enraged by the popular trope of the hero “saviour” who operates in individual prosperity and leaves the love and labour of the collective non-male invisible. The traditional notion of leadership doesn’t recognise all the stakeholders involved. The current dominant structure of top-down leadership and patriarchal heroism never did benefit the entire community.
About the hosts
Mrinalini is making the most of a conflicted passion for social development and entrepreneurship, and wishes to bring the change she seeks through building structures and communities, whilst tapping onto her entrepreneurial spirit to help her drive the change the society needs. She is extremely passionate about creating safe spaces for growth, collaboration, and wellbeing and truly believes in the power of togetherness and love. On days away from all of it, you will find her surrounding herself with dogs, nature, kids, and a whole lot of coffee.
Pooja Dedhia is a Brand and Design Executive at Common Purpose. With a background in branding within the social sector, Pooja brings a unique perspective to creating transformative brands. Beyond her professional pursuits, Pooja is dedicated to impactful projects in various areas, with a focus on career development, inclusive leadership, and collaboration with the feminist and queer community.
illesha is an interdisciplinary artist studying the geographies of the heart. She makes photographs, poems, films, books, and gatherings. Her practice is primarily concerned with the meeting of internal/external landscapes, forms that push us to reconsider the depth of our relationships to places and to each other. She is the co-creator of ikattha – an independent artist-run collaborative studio space that was based in Mumbai. illesha looks ahead with hope, to a more loving world for all beings.
Transcript
Pooja
Hello everyone!
Mrinalini
Hi!
illesha
Hello and welcome to “Explorations on Feminist Leadership by #OneFuture Fellows2022”, a podcast by the 2022 cohort of The One,
Pooja
Future Collective Fellowship.
illesha
Where we discuss, examine, and learn about all things feminist leadership.
Mrinalini
My name is Mrinalini and
Pooja
I’m Pooja Dedhia and.
illesha
I am illesha and today we will be talking about. Changing narratives of leadership and heroism.
Mrinalini
In a physical setup in Mumbai,
Pooja
we just had a very flowy conversation in such a beautiful environment and very cute cafe and we just had let each other’s conversation flow and guide us
Mrinalini
through our discussions. We understood how leadership and heroism are not just restricted to the outside world, all our workspaces, but something that are deeply and inherently connected into our being as well.
Pooja
We hope that you enjoy this episode. Thanks for listening in and let’s begin now. (followed by laughter) It’s very nice na, the ambiance?
Mrinalini
Are we like talking? Don’t worry about being perfect, that’s the first thing, come as you are. So I’ll tell you, like the image that comes into my head the moment I say these fancy words. It would be like of some man who’s like tall and like very like muscular and like you know, like full on. I don’t know, man. Like some, some just really strong buffy guy, you know who can just take on the world literally. And he believes that that he can because the world has, like told him, like, “Oh my God, you can do everything” like the world is like that. The problem with heroism is, the first problem is that it automatically places the burden of saving on one person and also victimizes the other one.
Pooja
Okay
Mrinalini
I feel that there is this big issue of codependency which arises thanks to heroism. Trying to get over here is that if you’re gonna put these social roles onto women, they’re automatically not gonna have the space to become financially or emotionally independent, even if they wish to do so. Or at least like there is the set of resources are unequally distributed over here.
Pooja
Yeah, so it like, it makes the quote “hero” indispensable.
Mrinalini
Yes,
Pooja
It means that he or usually he is required in order for the other person to survive.
Mrinalini
Exactly. In fact, I feel a lot is also about how it’s presented to us on the table. You know, like stories are literally what is being told to you.
Pooja
Yeah.
Mrinalini
How I narrate a story is what the story will be for you rather than what the story really is.
Pooja
Yeah yeah.
Mrinalini
So something of similar sort I feel happens with the shades of leadership and heroism as well, like your system that’s not really facilitating independence. Like, it’s not really, giving someone the resources to be able to stand on their own. Because that’s dangerous. Like, yeah. Why is it dangerous? Because then the hero might have less.
illesha
Again, equity comes over there.
Pooja
Yeah. Yeah.
illesha
So I feel like patriarchy in itself is propagated by this, by inculcating this sense of dependency on the hero. Do you want to share some thoughts, anything?
Pooja
Actually I rather had today, it was my CEO’s birthday right? Like she’s like I think 51 or 52 and she’s running the organization right now. Very nice to have like a handwritten note card from every person in the team, a small team. And sort of majority of the note cards said like you’re a really good leader and I aspire to be you including myself. Like I wouldn’t say she’s perfect but it felt like true because everyone had their own words to express it not like a message that you copy paste. So yeah, even she felt very heartfelt after she read all of that so. Yeah. So that is something I was just thinking on when we were, we wanted to talk about leadership and like this happened just today. So yeah, that was sort of going on in my mind.
illesha
Is she the first boss or like female like leader that you’ve experienced some like such a close level?
Pooja
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And she like it’s been 4 months to be there. But like she has taken care of me in a way, like when she involves me in the conversation, they’re like. In your in the position also in the age people are there. Yeah, she’s willing to open the door for you. And yeah.
illesha
And not just to open it, but to help you walk through. I think that’s really beautiful because I’ve had mostly female bosses in a lot of my work situation, say, in the last 10 years. And I think they have all embodied extremely male forms of leadership. And I’ve mostly experienced being, yeah, that being shamed in public and like extreme anxiety on their part. To match up and live up to their counterparts who are all males. But I’ve found that most women who are in leadership positions that I’ve experienced are under such severe stress and have worked so hard to get there. But once they’re there, they don’t really have the bandwidth to examine how they’re doing it. They’re so caught up in remaining in that position and proving that they are worth staying there, right? And there’s like so much to fight against in order for them to remain in those positions. Where does the energy remain to reflect? But I wonder how, like I practically genuinely wonder how did your boss get it right?
Pooja
You know, I was thinking about it. So I don’t know her entire story. But from what I understand she was an educator. She was a teacher before. So I think that sort of like how you behave with a student might be coming into her leadership style in a way, like the empathy, in a way. And she started her leadership journey around in her forties So I think the age factor also like she might be a little more secured even though there are like other men who might not making her feel very secure, but she herself and the person might be a little more secured. Like that sort of maturity might have been a part of it.
Mrinalini
Listening to the two of you, in general, if you think about a leader, for me a leader would be someone who opens the door for you, like Pooja just said. Or you know who brings you inside, who makes you a part of the table, who gives you a seat at the table and also gives you the respect to, the respect plus the strength. You know, go out and make some courageous calls or make some courageous decisions or just put your opinions down on the table. Sometimes you do need that question, you need that faith also that ‘Alright, even if I do screw this up, I have somebody at my back’. Only then I can take these bold calls or so to say, yeah, I feel, I think this this trait of leadership or of an ideal leadership so to say, if we think deeply about it, it stems from having a high EQ or like a high emotional quotient , right? It stems from like she said high sense of security? Yes. Empathy? Yes. Being able to be a good listener? Yes. Being able to find faults within yourself? Yes. Being able to provide a sense of affection also to the other person like that. Yes, I like you and I’ve got your back. The traditional top down notion of leadership. What happens is that again, it is the entire burden of being a leader, being a hero is placed on one gender. The same gender is conditioned to be born and bred in an environment where emotions are a sign of weakness. When emotions are a symbol of weakness, how are these individuals supposed to bring emotions to the table when they’re practicing? So we need to work on our emotional capabilities. Emotions are not a sign of weakness. We need to like probably put it on our shirts and wear it every day. I don’t know.
illesha
I mean it does take awareness and it takes you to keep repeating yourself. To keep drilling it in because so many years of conditioning that we’re kind of up against.
Pooja
So I will come into the emotions. I’ll just speak about my boss because this is on my mind today. I can’t like think of any other examples.
illesha
Good to, I think, to speak from where you are.
Pooja
Yeah. So she has like a little louder voice. Like her normal pitch is also little higher. So when she gets angry, her voice like becomes little more higher, right? And she is aware and she has like told us that if I’m angry and not angry at you, I’m angry at like the situation that has happened, right? Never. It’s never personal. If I say something, it’s never personal. She has like, you know, made that warning clear again and again and she’s the someone who loses her temper, like pretty quickly. And she’s aware about it, which is a good thing. Not losing the temper part, but being aware about it is a good thing.
illesha
Yeah, it is showing up as human, as flawed.
Pooja
And like imagine like if I’m a new employee and putting this out in front of me also takes a courage, right? Because if someone who comes into your environment you want to, like, impress them or as a leader, you might want to boss them or whatever. But like, putting this part out is also very human or like empathetic thing to do right. When you I think said like you know opening the door for others is very important So she tells other colleagues also “I want you to do this by yourself so that you learn so that you are capable of it, you can take it forward. You don’t have to come to me always.” She has this very small small nuances that happens every day. So you miss it. But when I was reflecting on it today since everyone wrote, everyone appreciated her as a leader. So I was reflecting and those are like everyday things that happen. So which is like a very different practice than what we see otherwise, right
illesha
And that’s and I feel like that’s something to do with not withholding information. Like I think if she’s willing, and not just willing, but interested in her coworkers picking up skills and picking them forward independently. Then she has to be transparent about how it’s actually done and what are all the moving parts that go into making this thing happen. And I feel like what often happens with hierarchical or top down leadership and a lot of say masculine you know, male forms of leadership that I’ve experienced is a withholding of information.
Pooja
I think that comes from insecurity of their position. Because if I know how to do it, then, you know, I might take her power
illesha
This is something I have thought about a lot in the context of family. So I had wondered again and again, you know, like if when I was a child, my father felt open enough with me to tell me the bank balance this is how much money we have. I knew my chocolate cost ₹5, but I don’t know what is that ₹5 coming out of, right? So I have no perception of what is the whole and then how am I expected to make decisions that then help the family? Even as a child. And I feel like growing up now as an adult, the genuine daily problems I face with financial management… Like, sure, it might be my terrible math skills, it might be my inability to remember numbers, but it might also be the fact that so much information was withheld in the times when I could have picked up these skills. Because my father needed to maintain a certain sense of even if it didn’t exist, he felt a lot of pressure. Even if there was no money in the bank account, to pretend that everything is fine. So you don’t feel stressed out, right. You know, I can understand that might even be empathy. You know, there might even be empathy on the part of the father that I don’t want my child to be really, really worried about this right now. So I will just pretend everything is fine and I won’t tell them that we have no money. Yeah. And I think that definitely also comes with a certain amount of privilege, to be able to withhold that information. But yeah, I think that’s like a good example of maybe how information-withholding prevents like independence in a workspace as well or in the world. Like if we don’t know, or if we don’t personally put in the time say to study all the laws, then how the fuck are we gonna walk around and know how to use anything?
Pooja
Like, I don’t want to elaborate more on this but political leaders, what they’re doing, they’re like basically withholding lot of information, right. And that’s how they’re controlling everything around us in some way or the other.
Mrinalini
Coming to what illesha spoke about when it comes to a family structure and also so brave of you to like to speak about like this. Thank you for bringing it up because I feel withholding information, sense of security, extremely valid point. But one more over here I feel is this mirage. This is the facade that you’re talking about, this mirage of perfection which the society as a whole chases constantly. We are the perfect family. My workplace is the perfect workplace. Please tell me one perfect family that exists because I don’t believe there’s any. But if I go home and ask my dad, he’s like, “Oh, we are like the perfect family. Why would you say we are not?” you know? And then he’ll get like, stressed the shit out if I say “Uh, we are not. ” You know, if you think about it, if you make women or if you make individuals, capable individuals, the relationships they form in their lives will come from a space of want, desire, and not from a sense of need. As an agency, as a society being an agency, I feel it marriage is a very big part of the Indian spectrum or I would even say the South Asian spectrum as a whole, right. If you think about how marriage is actually broadcasted or advertised, I’m sorry these are very technical terms, but it is kind of advertised, right? It’s drilled into our heads, right from the time you’re born, that oh marriage is like the best thing ever to happen to you and what not. I feel what happens is that over the years, because they’re so desperate to keep this one institution going. Or they believe that a set of institutions can only and only take the community ahead in the right spirit, that to continue these institutions they create such dependent creatures altogether, that that by the time you’re an adult like, okay, fine, you know that you suck at math, you suck at numbers, you suck at all of these things, but you’re still trying. That takes a lot of courage. And I’m not, like, saying this with any disrespect, but a lot of girls might stop and be like, “You know what? I’m not good at all of it. Why don’t I just get married to the guy, like my parents are, like, telling me about and like he’ll take care of all of this bullshit and I can, like, have my breathing space.” I’m not judging them for this. But what I’m saying is that there is a sense of incapability that is being propagated in the society as a whole. In order to ensure the success of a couple of institutions, which the society wants. And why and why are we chasing these things? Because we are so scared that independence will demolish the sense of community when in reality communities flourish the most when they are coming from a sense of independence.
illesha
I love that.
Mrinalini
I should not need to be with you all, but I should want to be with you all. And the problem is that when individuals are conditioned and brought up and they’ve been like structured in a way that okay, I do need these institutions for my survival, for my existence, the choices are never your choices. The choices are always the choices of the society.
Pooja
Yeah, especially in these cases where like someone is getting married or because of “I can’t do it. I need…that is how I am supposed to live.” And like you’re getting married for the need and not the want. So like later on, like after a certain point, you don’t want to be with that person anymore because of whatever reason, but because you need to be. There’s no other way.
Mrinalini
Exactly. Or you’re being trapped.
Pooja
Yeah you’re completely trapped.
Mrinalini
It’s like a bloody rat trap, man. Like you’re shown the cheese and you get into it. You’re stuck in, chalo keep eating the cheese all your life and now you’re gonna die in that rut only. So, I mean, that’s very dark.
illesha
I think there are so many women who go on these journeys every day, you know. Maybe we fight these ideas and we try to change the narrative of like our roles and our families. And like there I just met Limbo Pandit, my very close childhood friend, before coming here. And she was sharing with me how maybe in her family, her father has always earned more than her mother, right? So she never knew that she would be in a relationship where she was a financial supporter and now she is. She’s engaged. And she kind of, earns more than her partner does. And she thought he would be uncomfortable with it. And she was shocked that he wasn’t. That it, never even comes up for her, that it’s so comfortable just to support each other without it needing to be more him, or even needing to be entirely equal. And I think that’s the point where I see some cracks in the world forming and like some narratives actually beginning to change. But I wonder what level they happen on. Like, I wonder if it can only happen…I don’t believe it can only happen in a space of privilege, but I believe it’s more possible, like when we have the ability to have these conversations, that like narratives…. Do you feel like narratives change faster in spaces of privilege?
Pooja
Yeah, I think so. Like not every time, but definitely this privilege sort of aids it. Like lack of privilege might bring certain more obstacles than there is already in the world.
Mrinalini
You know, I don’t think so. I don’t. I have met the most broad minded individuals who come from a space of zero privilege and I’ve seen like, it’s probably my opinion is a little biased based on my experience…
illesha
No, but that’s how it should be. That’s what I want to know.
Mrinalini
Like imagine that the society and its notions are like this big giant thing, probably like that one over there. Okay, like a big, big tree okay. And the branches are like super wide and it’s like huge. Like the tree is a big, big massive tree. The canopy is like really vast and it’s like covering everything possible and it’s like a super big ass tree. Imagine there comes like a small budding plant like a small bud has just planted on like on the floor, on the soil, okay. Vichara, as long as this tree is like so vast and it is covering the entire universe, even if the plant tries to like grow bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, it will never. It will be so difficult for the plant to surpass the tree to break through the tree. If he, if he tries to do that, if the plant tries to do that, he will be broken. That’s what patriarchy does to our men. So they don’t try to be that plant. They try to add themselves to the Goddamn tree. And then when we talk about, let’s say, women or when we talk about the LGBTQI community. We are shunned over with a couple of leaves. We are not even given enough resources to probably even reach the root of the tree.
illesha
Yeah, because what would happen, in this metaphor which I love, is that the sunlight wouldn’t reach the forest floor. But you know what trees do. So trees… fall. And when a tree falls in a forest, all the seeds it drops will grow. And that’s often now trees continue to reproduce. Their children are born when they give up. And I think that’s beautiful. So, yeah, there’s something that has to die, sometimes, so the sun can, like, seep in.
Mrinalini
This helped me to think.
Pooja
I also know how our conversations are more family oriented today. Last conversation we had were like very, very more focused, right? Talking about like leader in workspace and we didn’t explore any other space. Yeah, I think today we are like sort of like it’s more diverse…
illesha
But do you see how, like the resource management being that no one is eating the fourth falafel. Everyone ate exactly equal, and we all are waiting to see who needs the last piece.
Pooja
They can have it. (followed by laughter)
illesha
That was something, huh? So thank you for listening to us again. We are Mrinalini, Pooja, and illesha talking about the changing narratives of leadership and heroism. We hope that you will take the time to examine the ways in which you have learned to lead. The ways in which your community is led and the ways in which narratives are shifting around you and we hope you will continue to plant seeds and to grow and to push down the trees that need to fall. To our listeners, thank you for joining us and listening today. We really appreciate your support. If you liked this episode, please follow One Future Collective @OneFutureCollective on Instagram and Facebook, and keep an eye out for future episodes of “Explorations on Feminist Leadership by #OneFutureFellows2022”. We look forward to watching you grow. Until next time. Take care of yourself. And we know we’re going to be exploring so much more together. Love from Mrinalini, Pooja and illesha. Good night, good morning, good afternoon, however and wherever you find yourself. Thank you.
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