“…when we speak about searching for justice, we’re often so narrow-minded at only thinking about justice as justice, that holds with being delivered. Let’s not forget about the different forms of justice that you and I are responsible for- not only what a survivor is responsible for seeking, but the sort of justice we are responsible for providing to survivors.”
— Vandita Morarka on survivor-centric approaches to justice in this episode of the In Search of Justice podcast.
Gender-based violence is an outcome of systems. The trauma that results from gender-based violence is a result of these unjust systems. So, should an individual reconcile with the trauma resulting from collective actions alone? What role do we play in acknowledging a survivor’s trauma? How equipped are formal legal systems in managing trauma while trying to deliver justice? In this episode of the podcasts, co-hosts Vandita Morarka and Morarka sit with the Program Director for Mental Health at OFC and clinical psychologist, Pragya Lodha, to talk about the role justice should play in addressing trauma.
Content Warning: This conversation includes mentions of assault, rape, and mental, emotional, physical and institutional violence.
***
Love to read or want to revisit your favourite bits? Dive into the full transcript below!
Ruchika
Hello and welcome to the third episode of the In Search of Justice podcast. I’m Ruchika.
Vandita
And I’m Vandita and today we’re delving into a perspective that often gets overlooked when it comes to conversations of justice.
Ruchika
Today we’re going to be discussing the role justice can and maybe should play in addressing the trauma of survivors of gender-based violence.
Vandita
Content Warning: Before we start out today, we’d like to give a general content and trigger warning for discussion of traumatic events through the episode. We will be talking about sexual and gender-based violence and it may be triggering for a lot of us. We will be deep diving into what trauma looks like and please feel free to step away from the episode, take a pause, take a break for your well-being.
Ruchika
What is trauma? We see that word being used everywhere in the context of gender-based violence, but what is it?
Vandita
I think trauma is primarily like an emotional response to a violent event, but I wouldn’t say that it stops at like an emotional response, right? I think trauma can manifest even physically, in behavioral aspects in so many different ways, and it definitely does not look the same for everyone. Even in the context of gender-based violence, these responses are quite specific to the acts of violence that have occurred, which could be because of the person’s gender identity, but it also depends on where the person’s social positionality is. How a person navigates and deals with trauma can often also be the result of the support systems they have.
And here I would also like to make a quick point about how often we see trauma more easily when it’s something larger, right? We have a tendency to classify even violence as small violence or violence that is okay to ignore, and larger violence that is something that is worthy of trauma and I think that takes away a lot from the trauma that each of us lives with every day. I will share a small example, if there is a case of rape, there is an automatic understanding of ensuing trauma, of the fact that trauma will be a possible consequence of the act. However, every time I would take the local train in Bombay, I would get sexually harassed at the railway platform or I would be cat called at least a few times a month but that sort of trauma is not accounted for. It doesn’t account for the fact that I walk faster when it’s late in the night or when I’m going into the parking lot of an empty mall, I’m clutching the keys in my hand to my car, and I’m planning to use that as a defense tactic, which I wouldn’t really know how successful that would be. The fact that I live my life according to a rape schedule, I am navigating my time, my work, everything to ensure that I’m not getting sexually violated or harassed is the form of trauma that I, and I’m sure a lot of people across the world carry with them every day and it’s not something that gets addressed. I think it’s very important that we look at trauma from a more holistic lens and we understand how all of this can be trauma and how we need to devise different ways to be able to address this.
Ruchika
So, I think it’s time to bring in our guest for this episode, and I think she can give us a deeper understanding of trauma, and especially link it to our conversation around justice. We have the Program Director for Mental Health at OFC and a clinical psychologist, Pragya, here with us. Hi Pragya, how are you doing today?
Pragya
Hi Ruchika, doing good. Hi Vandita, extremely happy to be a part of the podcast today and, I think it’s a topic that definitely needs a lot more attention and I’m glad that we are talking about this today.
Vandita
Thank you, Pragya. So happy to have you with us. I think it’ll be lovely to understand from you, what exactly is trauma, right? How would you define it? And then coming to the context of gender-based violence, how would you then define trauma under gender-based violence?
Pragya
So, trauma, if I have to very simply put across, it would just be, you know, an emotional and a psychological response to any stressful experience or situation that we basically experience as individuals. However, one thing to note about trauma is that there isn’t a globally recognized definition for trauma, so there is no one agreed upon definition of trauma and as a practitioner, and as somebody who works with people who have experiences of trauma, I think I understand this, that trauma is something that’s extremely subjective and relative. What may be trauma for one person may not be trauma for another and likewise. And there isn’t really a category that one needs to meet when it comes to trauma. So, when we look at basically literature and when we’re trying to understand trauma, we see that trauma is categorized into various types. You know, there’s of course psychological trauma, emotional trauma, there is trauma experienced at the physiological level, at the physical level and there are various types like acute, chronic, complex. In the literature of psychology, we also look at big T ‘Trauma’ and small t ‘trauma’, whereas I think when we look at the real world, when we’re looking at personal experiences, trauma is something that can be absolutely anything, because at the end of it, trauma is nothing but a perspective I would say. It’s basically a lived experience of an individual and whatever holds true for them, whatever, how they rather perceive that particular incident, is trauma for them. So this is where I think trauma is an experience that differs from individual to individual and does not need to necessarily meet a definition of criteria to be labeled as trauma or not trauma. It’s extremely important that trauma is understood as a relative experience and phenomenon rather than looking at it from watertight definitions or you know some categorized manner of understanding trauma.
And trauma associated with the phenomenon of gender-based violence is multi-layered. It can begin right from the very nature of the incident as well, so what is the intensity of the incident of violence and in itself, I think, you know, it doesn’t really matter whether the incident is big, small, it’s, it’s happening, you know, privately or it’s happening publicly. But if a person is basically experiencing stress, if the person is experiencing that phenomenon or that situation to be stressful, it is trauma or an experience of trauma for that person. I think also another factor which often gets missed out, is the privilege in itself. You know, what is the social demographic dynamic of the person, the cultural factors that are associated with lives. So trauma I think is in itself, I think, you know, we can keep going on and on about talking, the multiple perspectives of trauma, but I’d simply you know put it in a nutshell by saying that it is intersectional and multi-layered when it comes to understanding trauma in gender-based violence.
Ruchika
So I want to sort of take what you’ve just said, and reflect on it in a larger context and center survivors here for a moment, before going into sort of the support systems around survivors. Usually, in your experience as a mental health professional, what are some things that survivors of gender-based violence need or look for in order to recover from traumatic events or the violence they faced?
Pragya
I think one of the first and primary things that survivors look for is an identity. Most people feel at a loss of, you know, identifying with themselves. They feel confused as to you know, who am I? What am I? Have I, you know, like, have I become someone else? Am I to be blamed for what has happened to me? And there is a lot of experience of guilt and shame that is attached, which at one hand they experience intensely and on the other hand they also want to get away from, get rid from, but they don’t know how to. So there is a lot of sense of I think that desperate search for their own identity, a lot of strong sense of belonging that they look for because I think in a society where gender-based violence, I think is not even understood, you know, in the most holistic manners, a lot of times survivors also feel lost as to you know, where will I go after this? Who will associate with me? Who will take care of me? And a sense of belonging is something that some people are able to gain when they have maybe, you know, like a support group for survivors, or if they have, you know, a family to go to if they’re accepting enough. But beyond that, and I think for a lot of individuals, there is a deep sense of lack of belongingness that they desperately search for.
The third most essential thing that people, I think in my understanding, look for is a sense of trust. They want to establish trust, but they find it really difficult to be able to overcome their experiences of mistrust and reestablish their trust and they keep re-experiencing a lot of problems and also new problems in their existing relationships after the incident of violence and trauma. Apart from that, there are lots of people in general and I think if I have to, you know, give a blanket answer, I’d say that there is a lot of searching for forgiveness of the self, where they not just want to learn to forgive themselves, but they also want to ask the forgiveness from others. And I think that is one crucial point where we need to intervene as systemic people, as stakeholders and as you know, allies or supporters of you know, preventing gender-based violence, that forgiveness is not something that needs to be granted because this isn’t a mistake. However, I would like to and I want to bring this point forth because this is something that we do see in people who are survivors of gender-based violence. So that’s quite an essential perspective that I think needs to evolve at an individual as well as a systemic level.
Apart from that, a lot of self-confidence, self-esteem, self-worth looking at the self or you can generally say self-image, wanting justice and I think one of the things that I see beyond any of these concepts and constructs is that people sometimes literally just want to be seen as human enough so that this particular experience, whatever their experience is, is not repeated. And I think this is something which is something which is commonly experienced among people who are survivors of gender-based violence. They also do look for a lot of security, a sense of security and safety in their relationships, along with like I said, just really basic humanity. And I think it’s quite a saddening aspect, I’d like to add that, that it actually takes, you know, something like violence to take place, to be able to even realize and recognize that, you know, we deserve humanity. So, these are things that I think, you know, oftentimes can’t be just answered because of course, they are absolutely individualistic in nature. But these are some of the common factors that I’ve seen in my experience as a mental health practitioner, which I’d like to put forth to maybe both of you and maybe add as well, as I leave with some pondering questions about, you know, the basic grounds of humanity that goes missing and is rather a need for survivors.
Vandita
That’s extremely important, Pragya. I believe a lot of what occurs as a result of trauma for survivors is often so much more rooted in societal and patriarchal perceptions of what they see survivors as. Our society sees survivors as the person to blame, right? There is an immense amount of victim blaming, there’s an immense amount of trying to find out what they might have done wrong for something like this to happen, which links to a lot of lowered self-esteem, seeking forgiveness, like when you said when it’s not even their fault. I mean, I think to our listeners, it’s extremely important to note this linkage because often we root the trauma of survivors so much in that incident that has happened. And it’s very interesting to note that often a lot of reforms in which the trauma is manifesting is even about how society is responding to what has occurred, in the inability of different society agents, right? From your friends to your family, to truly be able to support you, to see you as the person against whom harm has occurred, and to be able to see you as a full human being, and to treat you in that way and to not treat you as less than. These are some extremely important points. Thank you for bringing them up.
Pragya
I’d simply like to reiterate and emphasize the fact that how it’s so important to look at people, not as simply survivors of trauma or survivors of violence. Because I think, it becomes such a crucial part of their identity and I think the de-shackling needs to happen right from there. I think we need to treat it as an experience, as any other experience. And you know, maybe I would also like to share this interesting research finding that I came across, you know about a year back; that all of us as individuals, experience at least five major traumas in our life and that is something that nothing can really like, you know, take away from. And I think this is where we all need to realize that we all are going to have experiences of trauma. We all have experiences of trauma and we need to learn to look beyond the lens of trauma, whether they are survivors or no, because I think in a perspective, we all are survivors of trauma.
Ruchika
Absolutely. So, I want to sort of focus on the point of trust that you made a little earlier and sort of round back up to that point. As a survivor myself, I think, personally I’ve been most comfortable with people when there has been a 100% belief and faith in what I have to say about my experience. Like you said, that trauma is essentially someone’s lived experience and a response to someone’s lived experience and their reality and as a society, we, especially in the context of gender-based violence, have the tendency to respond without belief in a person and without trust in the person’s own lived experience. It actually takes me back to what I was reading ‘What We Talk About When We Talk About Rape’ by Sohaila Abdulali and she had this particular paragraph that I’m going to read out because it was really, really interesting. This is when she met her father, right after she was raped by men when she went hiking with her friend and she’s written-
“When my father found me, he wrapped me in his arms, carried me up four sets of stairs to the roof and said, what do you want? We’ll do whatever you want.”
And just those two sentences, I think had so much power and so much- if you look at it even in the context of justice- so much justice delivering ability. Because there was no second guessing, there was no questioning, there was just 100% trust and faith in what had happened and acknowledgement of the humanity of Sohaila, in that moment, that I think is so, so important when addressing trauma due to gender-based violence. I want to talk about that and the power of acknowledgement in addressing trauma and how we can be more just while addressing trauma of people around us, of survivors around us, and our own trauma with just acknowledgement.
Pragya
Right, and I think to add to that, I’d say that acknowledgement of harm in survivors of gender-based violence can sometimes aid in their healing process as well. Sometimes it could actually mean that, you know, they become a little more aware, more insightful about what they really want. They’re able to voice what they really want. They do develop this insight to not let things just happen to them, but rather stand up for their own selves as well. Sometimes it also does give them, you know, I would say the added insight and the little bit of, sort of, understanding that they would want to also probably be there for people with similar lived experiences, to come and to support them as well. It also makes them a lot of times very open to, you know, just accessing justice as well.
And while we talk about, you know, the acknowledgement of harm and how it really, aids in the healing process, I’d also like to add that, you know, it’s important that we don’t include narratives of strength or empowerment only after you know that that comes only after the experience of gender-based violence or any traumatic experience for that matter. One is not necessarily expected to, you know, like come victorious or successful or more encouraged and powerful after having this experience. And we must also be very careful that, you know, we shouldn’t be glorifying trauma in the sense that only those people’s lived experiences are valid enough where they’ve come emerging victorious or more strong. So, I think it’s important to focus and also bring about the narratives around the vulnerability that sustains, that continues to sustain sometimes even lifelong, for people who have survived any sort of violence, especially even gender-based violence which tends to happen at so many subtle levels that it’s often not even recognized. So, it’s important that we do acknowledge both the spectrums where it’s not a necessity that one has to grow strong or empowering or encouraging.
Vandita
No, definitely, Pragya. Something what comes to my mind is often when I work with survivors of gender-based violence, I’ve had survivors tell me that, you know, I’m not a survivor, I’m a victim and I want to be seen as a victim because I don’t think this is something that I get survived through or I should be expected to survive through. And it’s been a conflicting point for me internally as well, right? Because it’s easy to give empowering language to a situation without true empowerment actually happening, without things actually shifting and I see that often when working with persons who face gender-based violence that there’s an automatic need to ascribe some sort of triumph, some sort of victory, and that puts so much pressure on the survivor. Like, for one to go through such an incident that is pretty traumatic, it could have manifested in different places; your family, friends, someone outside, someone you trusted, often, and then you’re expected to emerge out of it as if nothing has happened. And often you’re expected to emerge out of it even stronger and then perhaps even doing something to support other survivors of gender-based violence. And I find that just that expectation that is held with survivors is often so disempowering as well because it takes away their agency to be the people they want to to be, to be able to live through their life and their experience the way they want to. To share a personal experience, I faced violence about 16 to 18 months ago that pretty much affected severe parts of my life in a way that I would not have called myself a survivor. I don’t think I would still call myself that because I don’t think I survived. I feel like there are parts of me that haven’t yet or may not be for a really long time and I don’t know what surviving in that situation looks like. Just to build upon what Pragya said, right, that agency has to be with the person who faced any form of violence and allowing them to live their experience the way they want to and to live it fully; to live through their grief, to live through their trauma, to see whatever experience they might have had in a full and complete way, is a way of ensuring that survivors have agency and control over themselves.
Ruchika
Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that, Vandita. I think what I’m realizing is, and I have realized over the last year, is that the way we respond to survivors of gender-based violence when they do speak or when they do come to us with their stories of their trauma and their lived experiences is also a huge part of giving them the justice they might need in order to recover. And I think we’re very ill equipped in a lot of ways as a society in our responses and unprepared in a lot of ways in our responses to survivors when they speak up. It results in a lot of disbelief of survivors. It results in a lot of victim-blaming and shaming, a lot of getting defensive of what has happened and what hasn’t happened, and we sort of lose track of what is actually important, that is addressing the lived experience of the person rather than making it about everything else around it.
Vandita
Definitely. I find that that is so true in every situation. I find that as people we’re not taught how to address harm, and I don’t think we would know how to respond adequately if someone came and spoke to us about weight gain or weight loss, right. We’re seeing that if someone shares about the death of a loved one, how many of us know how to truly respond in a way that holds space for that person or learns how to recognize what sort of support that person might need. What if someone comes and tells you they failed an exam, or that they crashed a job? We often don’t have responses and I’m just giving these examples to showcase how ill equipped we are in general to support people and how often we don’t have that resource capacity within us. When it comes to gender-based violence, I feel like because we don’t know how to respond, we fall into these pre-written scripts of how we must respond and how society must react with such incidents.
Pragya
No, I think absolutely in agreement to, you know Vandita, what you said and Ruchika, what you contributed as well. And I think it actually boils down to how there is, I think first a need to just simply even understand the constructs of violence, gender-based violence and trauma. You know, to be able to become better equipped to even deal with this because I think at the heart of being unable to support individually or systemically at this point, you know, if we talk about is because we don’t even, you know, talk about these things like it’s a taboo, it’s a stigma to even talk about these things at home to begin with. So, these are conversations that you know have to happen and amplify in different spaces because I think these are things that will exist and will happen wherever we as humans are going to be there. So, the conversation I think needs to start right from the fundamentals of even understanding and being open to rather even talk about these things in the first place before we even get into the technicalities. And another thing which I think can become a very important part inherently of our systems of, you know, of building truly trauma-informed systems is to actually even let people/survivors talk and their voices actually have some sort of platform of importance, where we can learn from them as well.
Ruchika
That brings me to my next question. With your understanding of the legal systems and especially how they handle gender-based violence and respond to gender-based violence, can you tell us how effective or ineffective those systems are in addressing trauma?
Pragya
Well, I think I’m not sure how effective they are. So, I’m maybe going to talk about the inefficacy that remains to be there and that needs to rather be addressed. To begin with I think, when there is a lack of understanding of trauma and when we just stick to you know the definitions of ‘trauma’, it also makes us as systems leave out a lot of personal experiences that can actually be traumatic. Like how we’ve been discussing the whole subjectivity and relativity of experience of trauma, so right from, I think you know, the legal assistance that’s provided at police stations, how our, you know, our entire law system or the legal system works in our country, I think. Trauma-informed lawyering, trauma-informed practicing is something that’s absolutely amiss, where there isn’t a place for any sort of mental health assistance for the person who has been at the receiving end of trauma and violence. The first thing that needs to be brought into perspective is that in this whole process of even like you know the person deciding that you know they want to go and file for a complaint, the first thing, like you know how Vandita was just also talking about, in you know our previous question is the whole revictimization. You know, the victimization of the victim that happens, that has to stop because you know, we question the person you know, rather than questioning the society, the perpetrator and the system that are actually the perpetrators of violence. So this is where I think our understanding of gender-based violence needs to come from a perspective of the person who’s been at the receiving end and that, okay, what is their experience of the phenomenon, what does trauma mean to them and what is it that they want? And this I think calls for a need for a very learning attitude towards rebuilding our systems to become more trauma sensitive and trauma informed.
And like I said before, I think in the first place there is a need to even understand gender-based violence and trauma at a far more person based, you know, perspective rather than what it simply means out there in the white and black documents. Apart from that, I think since trauma like how we discussed initially is also something that’s multi-layered and intersectional in nature, there is a need for liaisoning in our systems. You know where lawyers and mental health professionals, from psychiatrists to counselors to social workers, to medical doctors, need to work together as a team to even share practices. It’s understandable that, you know, there are professionals who specialize to do the jobs that they do. But it’s important because when we’re dealing with people, we’re not just dealing with one particular incident in isolation, but a lot of other experiences that are associated with them.
Ruchika
How can we as individuals, as communities, as a society, do better in our interactions with survivors while being mindful of that trauma?
Pragya
It’s important that I think, like I mentioned, that the first step to becoming trauma sensitive is also like, you know, just being willing to make that effort to listen and understand from the person, which also requires for us to leave our lens of judgement aside for a while and truly understand that okay, you know, if the other person has had an experience and is, you know, maybe feeling traumatic about it or traumatized as a result of the experience. It’s okay to acknowledge that fact. It’s not necessary that it has to be a certain way or they have to have a certain level of or a degree of experience to be able to feel what they are feeling. This is where I think we need to, I think stop, you know, like labeling and stop, you know, what would I say that, you know, I wouldn’t use the word validating that experience, but sometimes it’s just simple acknowledgement and acceptance of the fact that, okay, that an individual can feel this way and is rather feeling that way. A lot of times when, you know, we see that when people talk about their experiences, the other person always has, but you know, if I was in your place, it wouldn’t be like that. Or you’re too weak. Or you’re too, you know, like, vulnerable or you’re not strong enough for you know, you should have done that. And I think this is why we need to realize that as second people, as third person perspective, it’s very easy to say things, but when you are at the receiving end of certain experiences, it’s an entirely different experience, it’s an entirely different scenario. So, it’s important that we stop telling people how to feel, how to think and how to be, and rather respect them for who they are and how they are and what they’re feeling. So, to be able to simply accept. And also I think the second step to go to is to even be able to question sometimes, you know, people are just waiting to fulfill their own, you know, thoughts, their own notions about what is right and what is not, and this is where it’s important to be able to even question what systemically and structurally is put out there because trauma is an experience that cannot just be packed, you know, within, you know, certain sets of definitions or categories of, you know, or what models we put out there. But it is something that needs to be understood from person to person. So as individuals, as communities, if we can be there to listen to them, you know, oftentimes everyone who’s a listener may not be in the capacity of even providing help and that’s fine. It’s okay to acknowledge the fact that, you know, I may not be able to help you, but I’m there to listen to you and maybe we can find someone to help you if needed. And it’s important to be transparent and accountable for the help that you can give, even if it means that you can just be a listener. So, I think this is where we can begin with.
And another thing, of course, the third thing is to simply also take a responsibility to become aware, to learn to self-educate ourselves of what is happening around, what people go through, and learning to have a yet further, you know, like what we call as advanced empathy towards people. To be able to look at people as people as not just as, you know, survivors and victims like how they spoke a little while ago, and truly acknowledging their experiences, their lived experiences and sometimes emotional support may be the only thing that you can give to that person, but you really don’t know that that could be the only thing that they were looking for. So, in your own ways, in our own ways, we can do things to sort of be there for people who have experienced violence and trauma and do our own bit of even being willing to, I think, learn more from what we know and not always reimposing and reinstating that, you know, what we know is correct or what exists out there in the system is correct.
Vandita
Those are extremely great points, but I think for all of us to learn from and to recognize that there is a path for all of us to start being able to support survivors, it doesn’t have to mean formal education. It doesn’t have to mean some sort of training before you can do that, and also developing a certain educational framework for yourself, like just learning online, learning through the multiple resources available online is such a great step.
I think also just for each of us to understand what trauma means and how that can look so different to different people in a more general sense, also, I think that would lead to a lot of empathy and capacity development towards just being there for people and setting boundaries and being there. Pragya rightly said that it’s okay to just listen. I think we have such an instinctive response to advice or give help that we don’t realize just listening and holding space for someone can also have so much value and which is why we often are maybe just reluctant from providing that support, right? I think it’s very important for anyone listening and it’s been such a journey for me to get here because my instinctive response is okay, how can I solve this problem for this person? Considering I work with survivors, my often instinctive response is what legal, medical, mental, healthcare support can be provided. And often, trust me, whenever I work with survivors, people are shocked. Often, they just want everyone to listen to them. They want their story to be heard. They want their story to be acknowledged. Me as a survivor, it took me so much time, but I realized that just having shared my story with people and having them listen to me with empathy and still looking at me the same way even after my story has been shared, I think that for me was so important and I feel like just being able to extend that to other survivors can be very affirming and pretty much transformative.
Ruchika
I think what you just said, one of our links to a supremely popular sort of Internet hashtag, ‘#believesurvivors’ that a lot of us are familiar with. And I think this is essentially the point of believing survivors. Just acknowledgement, just being heard, brings them a lot of peace and healing, and even maybe some semblance of justice in a lot of ways, depending on the survivor obviously.
Vandita
For sure, Ruchika. Just drawing on the linkage not only to our other episodes, but the entire purpose of this podcast, right, when we speak about searching for justice, we’re often so narrow-minded at only thinking about justice as justice, that holds with being delivered. Let’s not forget about the different forms of justice that you and I are responsible for- not only what a survivor is responsible for seeking, but the sort of justice we are responsible for providing to survivors. I think we often forget that holding space for them, believing survivors, supporting them to the best of our capacities and sometimes just doing things right, like not blaming them, not shaming them for something that happened to them. Those things in itself are a way of extending justice to the survivor and that’s where each of us becomes responsible. It doesn’t just become a systemic thing, it is not only a governmental, judicial, legal responsibility, it is a responsibility of each of us. Till we don’t change that fundamentally at our interpersonal levels and we don’t relook at our capacity to extend justice to a survivor of gender-based violence, I think it’s impossible to expect a system to provide that, not to say that we shouldn’t demand that of systems, because they of course have higher accountability and of course they are meant to rise above individual discrepancies and thinking and thought processes. But we do need a critical, marked shift in how we extend support to the survivors because without that, healing of trauma becomes not only impossible, but it also becomes a very lonely and individualistic journey. And I don’t think trauma that is caused as a result of collective actions of the society should be something that an individual is forced to reconcile with completely alone. I think it is our responsibility to be supportive and to provide and extend the care and healing that a survivor might need to overcome or just even go through trauma.
Pragya
The only thing you know that I often put forth, is a question ahead of us, in this case, I think maybe if Vandita and you have something to add onto and for our listeners to think about, is that oftentimes when I think about trauma, violence and justice when I’m also working with my patients who come with gender-based violence as an experience, is that what do we really choose? You know justice versus mental health care is something that is often a question that I think about, I ponder about as a mental health practitioner.
Vandita
So Pragya when you say that, instinctively what comes to my mind is it’s so sad that this has to be a choice. That often for someone who wants to seek legal justice, which is your right as a citizen in this country, it becomes a choice between do I really want to put myself through another process, that in itself will be more trauma inducing? For so many of my clients, having to repeat what has happened to them again and again can be so triggering that after a point they will just back out of a case because they can’t continue with their other parts of their lives, while they’re still dealing with the legal case. So honestly that’s my first response that it just comes immediately to me that it is unfortunate that this is a choice that we’re having to even think about, and that both should be able to exist, right.
And we have seen courts being successful in doing that, in Maharashtra courts are successful in trying to develop therapeutic services for those undergoing any sort of familial like discord and divorce and those sort of proceedings. And I feel like that also speaks to how you prioritize cases and what situations you think require that sort of therapeutic support and what situations you don’t. Yes, for me, I think it’s just sad that this is a choice and I would be unable to ever make that choice for myself or someone. And I just wish that this wasn’t the choice, that both of these could not only go hand in hand, but they could be interwoven in a way that seeking justice could automatically also have an element of getting mental health support. Ruchika, would you want to add something?
Ruchika
Getting access to any kind of mental health support that someone needs, that a survivor needs, I don’t think it’s an either-or kind of situation. It shouldn’t be an either-or kind of situation, that we shouldn’t re-traumatize and re-victimize a survivor in the process of “delivering justice”. I think that’s hardly justice if it causes more harm and it creates more trauma and puts a survivor through more violence.
Pragya
Hopefully through the podcast we’ve been able to create that absolute niche need of trauma-informed systems that can, and you know like I’m actually happy to know that you know, Maharashtra started with that and maybe it could be like you know the prototype of building more strengthened systems of working that are more trauma-informed and trauma-sensitive. So I thank you so much Ruchika and Vandita for, you know, even having the conversation about this which is so important, and I’m just glad that I could, you know, be a part of this discussion tonight.
Ruchika
No, absolutely. Thank you Pragya, for taking the time out to share such important insights into such a complex relationship between trauma and gender-based violence. I’ve learned a lot from you today, and I hope our listeners did too.
Pragya
Likewise, Ruchika.
Vandita
Definitely. Thank you so much, Pragya. This conversation has been extremely enlightening and I hope for everyone listening as well that just understanding trauma is easier because I know that it is easier for me now.
Ruchika
We hope to see you in our future episodes where we converse with various guests in search of justice. Until next time!
| What the body knows by Tishani Doshi The body dances in a darkened room,turning itself inside out so that the skin can face the light in fractures.slip like shadow through skeleton walls, begin to cry, Really, to scream about the tarnished weight of dreams. This has been a drift, after all. The body returns to its original place. Moves from one to the other. Creeps, Tries to flee itself. Lone drunk,searches for remains of a bark. Hints of what it used to be. Perhaps an ocean framed in bone. A pair of birds in early white, flying from this dream to the next, fixing the gaps between memory and reverberation, binding spine on vein, feather collision, The body collects its wandering paths, leans back through layers of thickening water, roots above boughs, beneath,feet, caving in to wonder. It’s how the world reverses itself, how the distant sky finds the earth. |
***
Do you have thoughts on this episode, and want to share them with us? Use the comment box to tell us what you think! Stay tuned for the next episode.
About the In Search of Justice Podcast
As we strive to collectively build towards social justice, it becomes imperative to challenge and reorient the very conceptions of justice. Justice, in popular culture and the zeitgeist overall, has been synonymised with carcerality, which presents a very myopic perspective of justice and diminishes the significance of justice as an intrinsic human right. Further, in the case of survivors of abuse, pathways to justice are further limited and often don’t include the survivors themselves in the process. Justice thus, becomes a destination, an outcome, rather than a collaborative, collectively-built journey or process. Through this compilation of the transcripts of the In Search of Justice Podcast, we aim to explore this discourse surrounding justice, particularly in the context of gender-based violence, in bite-sized episodes. Co-hosted by Vandita and Ruchika, these conversations seek to navigate the multiple meanings of justice, especially when it is considered the penultimate goal by questioning carceral systems, introducing alternative justice systems and leading the conversation into how we can build justice systems that are receptive and responsive to the various needs and desires of survivors.