“… it is about transforming the values you hold here as a leader and moving from just the idea of how productive are you in a capitalist system to thinking about how is your leadership transforming spaces, how is it transforming individuals. To think about, are you nurturing and enabling another generation of leaders, another set of leaders?”
— Vandita Morarka, speaking on the essence of feminist leadership in this episode of the Nurturing Radical Kindness podcast.
Who do you think of when you hear the words, “feminist leader”? It could be Jacinda Arden, former prime minister of New Zealand, known for steering her country through the COVID-19 pandemic, or K.K. Shailaja, known for adeptly handling the Corona outbreak in her state of Kerala. It could be queer liberationist icon Marsha P. Johnson or Angela Davis, the abolitionist and scholar. Do you think of a politician, an advocate, an activist, or a writer? Is someone close to you a feminist leader? Feminist leadership is everywhere, yet what does it mean to be a feminist leader? Who can be one? In this week’s episode of the Nurturing Radical Kindness podcast, co-hosts Sanchi Mehra and Vandita Morarka are joined by Sanaya Patel, dispute resolution lawyer based in Bombay and the Chief Legal Officer at One Future Collective as they discuss what feminist leadership means to them, and how one can design a workplace that embodies the principles of intersectional feminism.
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Love to read or want to revisit your favourite bits? Dive into the full transcript below!
Vandita
Hi everyone, welcome back to Nurturing Radical Kindness, a podcast where we explore radical kindness as a pathway to achieving social justice. My name is Vandita and my pronouns are she and her.
Sanchi
And I’m Sanchi, and my pronouns are she/her.
Vandita
And we’re so glad to have all of you listening in today.
Sanchi
We loved the feedback on the last episode and we’re so glad that so many of you are enjoying the podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode, and we are super excited for today’s conversation.
Vandita
Absolutely, Sanchi. For me, what we’re discussing today is one of the most important practices in my everyday life, and I’m so glad to be able to have this conversation with you and with everyone listening in. Today we’re talking about feminist leadership and what that can look like in practice, both in our interpersonal relationships as well as when we apply it to systems, processes, it could be a workplace, it could be a government body, so I’m very keen on exploring this with you.
Sanchi
Yes, me too. And it feels so wonderful to be able to talk about this. I feel like feminist leadership is so important, but we just don’t understand the concept of it enough sometimes. And I also do feel that often it is misunderstood to mean leadership by a person belonging to a particular gender, whereas feminist leadership is really a way of leading. It’s a practice, and it doesn’t necessarily belong to a specific gender. It definitely scares people, right? Because historically, leadership has been about creating a hegemony of sorts. It’s been about exerting dominance and power and creating a divide when it doesn’t have to be about that at all. And Vandita, you said you’re someone who practices this in real life too. So what does feminist leadership look like to you?
Vandita
Thanks for the question, Sanchi. It’s something I’ve thought about often, more and more recently, and I find that my own idea of feminist leadership has transformed so much over the years. I feel like it has shifted with who I am, where I’m located, what sort of position I’m in to be able to exert power and influence as well. I think that is something that shifts drastically with imbibing practices of feminist leadership in my life. I think for me, it’s mainly been about recognizing that being a leader and being an inclusive, diverse and kind person are all things that can coexist, but for the longest time, they’ve been seen as separate. They’ve been seen as something that cannot overlap at all. In fact, our ideas of leadership are so set in stone that even when I’m referencing back to what leadership is, or when I was a child, when someone asked me what leadership is about, the first thing that would come to my mind is something that is extremely masculine, aggressive and also a certain form of heroic form of leadership. Like, I remember all the stories I heard as a child as well. There would always be this one person who sort of bought in the change. There would be one person who saved everybody. It did not ever recognize the efforts of all the multiple people and the collectives that went behind anything becoming possible. I think that, in trying to fit into this ideal of leadership which has traditionally been espoused, often leaders start replicating what are largely aggressive tactics that you don’t really need to. I think Jacinda Ardern said this, who I love, by the way, and they have a really great take on this. So she says that ‘You do not have to have personal ambition to be a leader. You don’t have to be the loudest person in the room. You can believe in consensus more than you believe in conflict. And you can be human. You can feel and show emotion. You can be kind, empathetic and strong.’ And I feel like this encapsulates what a feminist leader means to me today. It has drastically shifted my idea of leadership and it has taught me that leadership has to be about people, first and foremost, over everything else.
Sanchi
That’s so true, and I think we really need to appreciate and understand that we can all be strong leaders without being bullies, right? And I think for so long people have viewed empathy and kindness for others as traits that are very inherently feminine, and thus by default, traits that are weak. The idea that a leader can possess such feminine traits and still be in that position then becomes threatening, right? Because it’s so different and as you rightly pointed out, we’ve only seen the masculine form of traditional leadership. So, it becomes different and thus it becomes threatening. And I also know that you spoke about Jacinda Ardern, so I do want to say, while we adore her, it’s not just because she’s a woman. And this is not to say that being a woman means you’re automatically going to be the greatest leader ever, or that you can do no wrong, but I cannot be the only one thinking this is such a breath of fresh air compared to the leadership you’ve seen, right? The classic heroic leadership that you mentioned, where we find dominance and control and assertiveness as some key characteristics central to the identity of the leader. And while these traits can be performed by any gender, they are mainly masculine traits conventionally. So I just want to point that out, that women can be flawed and narrow-minded and prejudiced and not fit for the leadership position at all. However, these are individuals as opposed to the culture of dominance and control that the leadership we most often see in and I think this then further begs the question, what do you think is the fundamental difference between traditional leadership and feminist leadership?
Vandita
Thank you for your reflection, Sanchi. Before I even answer this question, I would like to share that even the notion of traditional leadership comes from historically always having men in leadership positions, right? It comes from the industrial revolution and even way before that and what has happened is that doing work, at least the work that society recognizes as work, has for so long been associated with men performing those tasks that leadership and masculinity have become conflated to look like and mean the same thing, whereas they may not often be that. So, leadership and doing leadership has become doing masculinity. So even you will notice that, even when persons of other genders reach positions of leadership or are exercising leadership in any way, they will often replicate similar traits as you would see in a man who’s in a leadership position. So these traits over time, while inherently considered masculine, have become your norm for leadership and I think that’s where traditional leadership is stuck. So I think at its core, feminist leadership looks at dismantling the patriarchy that exists within traditional leadership and traditional leadership replicates a very lopsided social and cultural reality that we exist in and thus can function as a tool to oppress rather than uplift. It is very, very person-focused. It is very growth-focused. It doesn’t necessarily prioritise people over profits. And like you mentioned, respect in traditional leadership is often rooted in dominance and aggression. Feminist leadership, however, is the kind of leadership which completely flips this respect and power structure, right? It changes how we view them completely. And this is not to say that people of all genders cannot be feminist leaders- of course, they can be.
However, it is pertinent for feminist leaders to actively embrace what we might traditionally see as feminist traits, right? We might see them as feminine. We see nurture cultures as traditionally feminine and that is why alongside this, we will have to change the notions of power that have existed for so long. You can no longer measure the effectiveness of a leader as someone who’s producing a lot. You have to look at leadership also as a function of nurturing. You also have to look at leadership as a function of enabling other leaders and I feel like that is where feminist leadership moves away drastically from traditional leadership. I also find that feminist leadership recognizes, calls out, and works actively to correct social injustice, be it in whichever space. It could be in interpersonal relationships, it could be in a group of friends, it could be in a community that you’re a part of, or in a more formal institution. It recognizes that injustice exists and as a part of its leadership, it doesn’t just focus on getting things done, but it also focuses on improving and correcting things.
Sanchi
That’s wonderful. Thank you so much for bringing that up, Vandita. And I think you worded it so well when you said that we often equate leadership and masculinity because of our history to be the same, but it doesn’t have to be so, right? And it’s also so interesting that you brought up power because I want to talk to you a little more about how power is held and exercised in the traditional leadership model versus how should power be held and exercised under feminist leadership. So first off, something that feminist leadership keeps central is the idea of ‘power with’, as opposed to the standard ‘power over’. Feminist leadership also then goes on to recognize the power of community and values individuals, right? And the leadership is shared along with the power, something that traditional leadership seems to completely reject.
Vandita
Oh, definitely Sanchi. I think something that I’ve always found so beautiful about feminist leadership is the idea of a leaderless movement, which is not to say that there aren’t leaders, but there are so many that you can no longer distinguish, because everyone is taking ownership of their journey as a leader. And feminist leadership really enables that sort of collective leadership, collective consensus-based decision-making, which I’ve always found incredibly powerful. And by doing this, what feminist leadership also ends up doing is that it’s not only making space for diversity, but it’s building systems that are inclusive. And not just inclusive, it’s moving the arc in the long term towards social justice because it’s incorporating anti-oppression practices. It is making space for people who have traditionally been marginalised or who have been relegated to, you know, as outliers or who have not been taken into consideration when decision-making is happening, and places them at the centre of the decision-making process and while we can assure diversity, building a culture of inclusion and inclusivity would mean valuing each person’s lived experiences, making space for it, and also respecting it and I think feminist leadership does that beautifully because it’s dedicated to building such a culture. I’m gonna rely on the words of Audre Lorde, because everything they say, they say so beautifully. They say that ‘There is no thing as a single-issue struggle because we did not live single-issue lives.’ And I think feminist leadership just encapsulates this so beautifully because it understands that people show up as their whole selves in every space, and it makes space to account for all these different identities that each of us carry and alongside it then makes space for multiple issues and looks at solving them from a community perspective, not just solving them for the community, but working with the community to solve them.
Sanchi
Wow, I think that quote was so profound, and it definitely gave me goosebumps. And Vandita, I also loved how you brought up the difference between diversity and inclusion, and I think it’s really important for us to recognize that as well. And I also think what is unique about feminist leadership is that it wants more such leaders to come up. It wants to share power, and it wants leaders who believe in these ideals, who are actively practising them in their everyday lives. I don’t think feminist leadership is about gaining followers or fame, but it’s more about wanting these communities to be able to grow such leaders within them.
Vandita
Absolutely, Sanchi. I completely agree with everything you’ve just said. Feminist leadership is so much more about the people around you and investing in them to nurture their growth and your growth with them, rather than just like a binary of leading and following, I think it also enables people to see themselves simultaneously as leaders and as followers. And I know that feminist leadership can seem like an abstract concept and not something we can necessarily apply in our everyday lives, but often the practice of feminist leadership can be the practice of anti-oppression. It can be the practice of social justice and there are some very actionable ways in which you can implement this in your everyday life, in your workplaces. And I’m really excited that we have someone from the One Future Collective team to talk a little bit more about that with us. We have Sanaya joining in. Sanaya is the Chief Legal Officer at One Future Collective and is someone that I deeply admire as a feminist leader. Hi Sanaya, so nice to have you here.
Sanaya
Hi Vandita. It’s so great to be here.
Sanchi
Thank you so much for joining us, Sanaya. We are so happy to be having this conversation with you, and I am going to jump right in because I’d love to know your take. What does feminist leadership mean to you, Sanaya?
Sanaya
Thank you, Sanchi, for that question. And just tying back into what you both have been talking about since you started, I think feminist leadership to me is the knowledge that kindness, empathy and humanity and strength are not opposing qualities and can co-exist within a leader. Also echoing Vandita’s explanation that leadership is about enabling others. So when I think of feminist leadership, I think about keeping affected communities at the centre of a conversation, about knowing that if you have access to those in power, you use that access to open doors for other people, recognizing also that feminist leadership is about collective decision-making. And I have a great example to share from our work processes at One Future Collective. What I’ve admired the most about the team and how we function is that hierarchies for us are only a functional tool. And when I say this, I mean that when there’s a decision to be taken or an idea to be executed or a project that we’d like to work on, we always share the idea with the team and take inputs before we launch a project. And while we do this, there’s no hierarchy on who can say something, who can shoot down an idea if it sounds not so great, who can give critique if the critique is valuable? We value people’s voices. And I think that OFC does this very well.
Vandita
Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Sanaya. I think everything you shared also very strongly resonates with me, and I would just like to build off that to share that feminist leadership is often just getting more comfortable with discomfort because not everything is going to come easy when we start decentralizing power, when we start distributing leadership and we start changing what we value in leaders or what we see as an effective function of leadership. It’s not necessarily going to be an easy process and which is why feminist leadership may not be an easy journey, but it’s definitely an important one. So coming to my question, while this sounds really easy in theory, right, practicing it can look very difficult. So Sanaya, what are some ways in which you think we can actively be feminist in our leadership?
Sanaya
That’s a good question, Vandita. And I’d like to start by saying it might look difficult only because we’re so rooted in traditional ideas of leadership that it’s difficult to look beyond it and to stop performing that role of leadership that we’ve always known. So in some ways, being a feminist leader might actually look like going back to a more natural version of ourself, where we allow ourselves to be kinder to the people that we work with and interact with, where we really put people first at work. See, this works no matter the strength of your team, designed for everyone in your workplace, have open conversations, allow people to speak freely. I think this works no matter how big your organisation is, no matter how small. When you put your people first, you’re telling them that they’re more than a cog in the machine. You’re recognising that they are a human first and that their productivity is less important than them bringing their full selves to work. Another way in which we can actively be feminist in our leadership is to embrace imperfection and also embrace mutual care, which means that we care for the communities around us and disregard, say, traditional notions of power that you spoke about earlier. Another practice, which is actively feminist, is to grant menstrual leave for people who menstruate-it’s something that we’ve known for quite a while, and it’s a small tweak in our systems which can make the effort of going to work or just being present at work so much more easier. It’s a small tweak in your system that makes people feel more comfortable being at work, and small steps like this go a really long way in ensuring that your people are happy at the organisation.
Sanchi
I really love that Sanaya and I love the culture of kindness that you shared with us. And speaking from personal experience, I think I am so much happier and also better at what I do be it learning at college or daily tasks at my workplace when I know that I can bring all facets of who I am to the institution without any inhibitions. So, feminist leadership through active policies and through culture really just welcomes my whole self, and I find that to be simply incredible. And I think one way that we also discussed to be actively feminist in our leadership is by valuing the communities and the people we lead, right? So capacity building is a huge part of feminist leadership, and I want to ask you, what does that look like in practice? What are some ways in which one can actively share power and build leadership within our communities?
Sanaya
Thanks for your question, Sanchi. I think the easiest way is, as I mentioned earlier, to make hierarchies functional and not rigid and also encourage young voices. So when we talk about encouraging young voices, I’d like to give an example. One Future Collective’s leadership team is young. We have an average age of 23, and this means that we’re not appointing people based on their experience and definitely not on their age, but on their enthusiasm and their passion for the work. Further, another way of perhaps actively sharing power and building leadership is to take the time to really train your employees and mentor them. And the reason I bring up mentorship is because it’s different from a regular training. Mentorship is about taking the time to learn where a person comes from, what makes them tick. And once you do this, and once they have active mentoring, they’re able to realise their goals and they’re able to see value in the work that they do. Sharing a note about what mentoring means to me as a person who is also an active part of the legal fraternity in India. In a typical law firm, maybe a tier-one law firm, you don’t receive mentoring. You get an induction training at the beginning of your career, and that’s supposed to guide you through the rest of your job. Perhaps you have a great boss, but it’s not an institutional process whereas say in a smaller organisation or an organisation that really values feminist leadership, one would see the leadership team take an active role in mentoring the young people who come into their organisation, mentoring their team on what the values of their organisation are. This makes a huge difference to how people will approach work because it makes you feel part of the community.
Vandita
Definitely, Sanaya, thank you so much for sharing that. I find the mentoring aspect extremely powerful and for me, it also comes from a space for persons that may come from backgrounds where they’ve not had similar access or similar experiences, mentoring and coaching can be a transformative experience to actually get access to leadership, right? To also recognize that you can be a leader. I feel for so many of us, even the realisation that we can be leaders or we can be change makers has come so late in life simply because no one told us that. We did not see ourselves represented, neither in leadership positions, not in stories, not in that TV shows. We just didn’t see that happen. And I find mentoring can really bridge that gap when it comes to feminist leadership and when it comes to enabling, like another generation of leaders. And while we’re on this, I would like to share that feminist leadership essentially comes down to two things, right? Most people tend to think about feminist leadership as more women in leadership positions, but more and more feminist leadership has to be about more representative leadership because I wouldn’t say that every woman is necessarily a representative of me. And the second part that comes in, is changing the values we associate with leadership and what we see as effective leadership. So, moving from more masculine ideas of a grow culture to a more nurture culture. And that’s where my next question comes in for you, Sanaya, as well. I’ve been seeing that a lot of women leaders in specific are put up on a pedestal, even when we see feminist leaders who may be women, right? And I find that when we do this, we’re sort of placing them at an impossibly high standard. I’d love your thoughts on what this does for women leaders who are put on a pedestal and how just putting people up on a pedestal or putting leaders up on a pedestal could actually be detrimental to feminist leadership.
Sanaya
Vandita, this is a really important question because often when women leaders are acting with their authority, they are examined microscopically. It’s like they’re put on trial, and even the smallest mistake can seem like a huge failure. And when we tie back to our conversation about feminist leadership, I think that one important part of it is to recognize that we are all human. So leaders need not be put on a pedestal. Leaders must be acknowledged, as you know, part of the community and people who can make mistakes but who are willing to learn from those mistakes and learn from those failures. I think earlier we were discussing a point about how we at One Future Collective made certain decisions with this year’s fellowship program that I’d like you to talk about and this might illustrate the point better.
Vandita
Thanks for that Sanaya. So something happened earlier this year with the fellowship. We tend to keep a rolling deadline. So as people apply, we sort of read applications and just make selections. And someone on the team this year brought up that by doing that, we sort of prejudice selections against the people who apply towards the end because we also have a limited number of positions available for the fellowship. And when they brought this up, my initial reaction was, but you know, we’re a small organization, what if we don’t get enough applications and a bunch of like other reasons as to why the rolling selections made more sense. But then I remember me taking a day or two and also the other team members thinking about this and actively ideating around it. And I did come back to this realisation that yes, when we do not keep a cumulative cut-off date for applications and we do not process all applications against the exact same standards, not constrained by the fact that we have only three more seats left, we will be able to do a greater service to the people who apply. And our practices, not just in terms of the end result, but even in terms of the process will be more feminist because they will be more equitable, everyone will have an equal chance at the fellowship. It will be a more just process. And while I understand the reasons why we were not doing it this way earlier, I found that having that reflection from a team member and having it done in such a gentle way also really pushed me to think about how we can change our processes to make them more feminist, to make them more equitable and inclusive. And the fact that the team worked together on consensus building rather than breaking down into a system of us versus them. And also what was beautiful was that we really tried to talk to each other about this. We did not want to make unilateral decisions. And I think that really helped us reach a consensus where from next year we can be assured that our processes are more fair and more just.
Sanaya
Definitely. See, this is what I was talking about. A big part of feminist leadership often is to just show up and be seen and do the work and be courageous about making mistakes, so you know what works and what doesn’t and what’s a better way to move forward. And here I’d like to bring in a really good example of criticism and why your critics aren’t the ones who count. It’s Brene Brown’s speech, and she says a lot of very powerful things about how you must keep the critics around, but they aren’t the ones who count at the end of the day. They say that when you armour up and you stop listening to what everyone around is saying, you feel heavy and suffocating. And when you armour up against vulnerability, you shut yourself off from everything that you love and do. Whereas vulnerability is really the birthplace of joy and creativity, and without it, we can’t create or grow. So, the moral really is reserve seats for your critics, hear them, but don’t buy into what they’re saying. So, when we talk about people who put women on a pedestal or use their voice to undermine feminist leadership when they aren’t doing the work themselves, listen to them, but don’t really concentrate on those voices. And also to think about what would have been different if you didn’t show up, I think that could be a really big driving factor. I also wanted to bring up this one point about feminist leadership. Inherently, when you’re talking about actively practising feminism, it’s a very strange middle ground to be working in. You’re working within the very structures that you’re trying to dismantle, and it’s a very tenuous place to be. So if you’re a feminist, you’re working in a space of tension because you’re trying to create new structures while still navigating the old ones. So I know it’s difficult, but it’s wonderful to actually do it and have a community of people who support you while all of you do it together, and the results can be fantastic.
Vandita
Thank you for sharing that with us, Sanaya. These are extremely pertinent points. And I think what really stands out for me is that even just the idea of putting women up on a pedestal takes away from what feminist leadership is about because a few leaders are not what feminist leadership is about. It is about decentralized collective leadership. And when we pedestalize a few leaders, we’re essentially falling back into the traps of a heroic leadership model. Again, everything that you just shared about not holding people to impossible standards and allowing them vulnerability, allowing them their humanity is such an important part of also how we see our leaders, to not distance them from ourselves as people, but to recognize that they are people just like you and me because also this means recognizing leadership within you and me, recognizing leadership within each of us.
Sanaya
Absolutely. I agree with that and just going back to this point about mentorship. What mentorship does for us is to, you know, have that one person who will tell us, ‘Okay, you can do this. This is a possibility for you.’ And just to have one person who says that, some person who’s further down their career trajectory or their life trajectory, saying that to you is extremely powerful.
Sanchi
Thank you so much for that, Sanaya and Vandita. And Sanaya, I think it gave me so much confidence when you said that just think about what would happen if you didn’t show up. And really, thanks so much for that. Also just adding to what you both shared, I think by putting feminist leaders on a pedestal, we often tend to think right, that they can do no wrong. So, when feminist leaders or feminists do make mistakes, it becomes a really tough pill to swallow, but we should allow ourselves that space, right? So, Sanaya, I want to know from you what is the next step after we know that there might be some harm that we’ve caused. What does accountability then, look like for a feminist leader?
Sanaya
Thanks, Sanchi. Accountability for a feminist leader means showing up and owning your words and your actions. So if we know that we’ve caused harm, then we take ownership of it and we acknowledge it, and we really demonstrate a change through our actions. So we recognise the harm that is caused, but we also do something to remedy it. We also recognise our own humanity when this happens. So don’t beat yourself up and say ‘I’m in a leadership position, how could I have done this?’ Or it doesn’t fit a leader. Even as someone who’s watching from the outside, if some person who’s in a leadership position does something that causes harm, not to chastise them for it and to acknowledge that they too can fail. And for a feminist leader so important to fail well, and by this I mean acknowledge the failure, recognize it, know that you are vulnerable to it, and it will happen. But, you know, push forward and learn from it. Vandita, would you like to add something here?
Vandita
For me, I think, Sanaya, accountability is always just being so much by being honest and transparent with the people we’re working with, with the communities we serve, or just even in our general everyday relationships. I think the ability to acknowledge when you go wrong or when you do something not in the way it’s supposed to be done, think of active solutions about how that can be corrected, not just depending on others to correct that situation for you, and then actively try to repair harm and take ownership and accountability of what has gone wrong. I think that is what a feminist leader is about. It’s never about you’re never going to make mistakes. Each of us is human and each of us is going to make mistakes, but as long as we can actively ensure that we’re taking ownership, we’re correcting harm, and we’re putting in place processes and even checks on ourselves to ensure that we’re not repeating the same harm again, I think that’s completely fine. I also feel like as feminist leaders, we have to be mindful of who we’re being accountable to. I think often it becomes easier to be accountable to people who may traditionally have more power than us, but we may not exercise the same level of accountability towards people we serve or people we share power with. So I think that is an extremely important part of accountability for me as well. I think being accountable across stakeholders, being accountable to everyone equally, and ensuring that everyone has an equal stake in being able to hold you accountable, I think that’s extremely important for me as well. And I think you can even apply this to like your personal life, right? Do you have friends that you would be more accountable to? Do you have people in your life that you would maybe walk over more easily? So to also be conscious of these same values and practices in your everyday life and extend similar values, behaviours and practices to each person in your community. It could be your family, it could be friends, it could be, of course, as a part of larger institutional systems.
Sanaya
This triggers some really interesting thoughts for me and things that I haven’t thought of before but do tie into our earlier discussion about dismantling power structures and hierarchies. So thank you for bringing that up, because I think that when we think about accountability, we often think about it in terms of the traditional people that we are accountable towards, but not maybe horizontally say there’s less accountability towards people we usually take for granted. And this is a really good reminder to check ourselves. So thank you, Vandita.
Vandita
No, definitely Sanaya. I feel like we cannot truly dismantle structures of oppression or just decentralise power till we don’t start with ourselves, and till we don’t start with the people immediately around us. I think it’s very important to be cognizant of how we treat our friends, of how we treat our family, of how we treat people in our everyday lives who definitely have in the current structures lesser power than us. I think that is a great life signal of feminist leadership and to also develop feminist leadership within you. It’s easier sometimes to do it in institutions, it’s easier when there is a formal structure around it, but way more difficult when it comes to personal life and thank you so much for all the reflections you’ve been sharing, Sanaya and Sanchi. I think I’ve learned so much and I’ve resonated so strongly with everything that you all are saying, which brings to mind this poem that I’d like to conclude today’s conversation with. It’s a poem by Haley Sawyer that talks about women in leadership, and it points to a lot of our conversations around putting women on a pedestal and vulnerability when it comes to leadership. Just going to start off.
Each day I paint a picture of societal expectationsWhat do I wear? What should I say? To whom do I owe an explanation? I am taught to be quiet but at the same time confident So how do I prove myself in a world that labels me incompetent? My life is under a microscope zoomed in on slanderYou see, women walk the tightest stroke of an ugly double standardBe sexy, not slutty, be pure, not a prudeDon’t say sorry too much, but if you don’t, you’re rudeDon’t be afraid to take chances, but at the same time know your place Because “hun” you’re just a cheerleader in this male dominant raceI’m not saying I hate men, I envy the right to power When I work just as hard and get paid less every hourThis is not some pity poem, I’m just spreading the truthLook up the White House Project if you want some solid proofI’m a striving woman leader and I want to make things fairWomen are more than cooks, cleaners, sex-appeal and childcareWe need to appreciate women who are smart and deserve to be respectedStop listening to societal norms, those need to be rejected Until we’re treated equal I won’t be satisfied Go sit at the head of the table, you’re more than qualified |
And I love this poem for what it speaks about, just in terms of feminist leadership. Not only for women, but I think for every person that comes from a marginalised group and has been made to feel silenced, less than or made to feel like they don’t belong in a certain place.
Sanaya
Absolutely, Vandita. I also wanted to say that much of what we’ve discussed today has made me reflect on feminist leadership as a process of truth-seeking, where you really seek your own truth inside you, you’re very vulnerable, you’re very honest first with yourself, and that makes you more capable of understanding your community better and developing a better understanding of what leadership should look like.
Vandita
Definitely. You’ve put that so beautifully, Sanaya, I think for me, and I hope to leave everyone listening in with this very key essence of feminist leadership, right? Feminist leadership is by and for everyone. You could be a person of any gender and you can practice this. You can be a person at multiple social positionalities in life and you can practise this, but it is about transforming the values you hold here as a leader and moving from just the idea of how productive are you in a capitalist system to thinking about how is your leadership transforming spaces, how is it transforming individuals. To think about, are you nurturing and enabling another generation of leaders, another set of leaders? I think that for me is the key essence of feminist leadership. And something that of course I think we always forget when we’re talking about social change processes but it’s so important is that feminist leadership has a very strong aspect of joy and celebration and love and compassion. So not just holding space for each other for work, but to recognize that there truly isn’t like a work-life divide where the same people that show up everywhere. And to hold space for each other with love, with compassion, and to celebrate joy, celebrate small moments. I find that that’s a major part of feminist leadership for me as well.
Sanchi
Absolutely. Thank you so much for that, Vandita, and thank you for ending on that note. And this conversation has given me so much to think about. So, thank you for that. And thank you so much for joining us today. Sanaya, it was so lovely to hear all your reflections and your thoughts. And really, it was just a blast talking to you.
Sanaya
Thank you, Sanchi, and thank you, Vandita. Likewise, I think I’ve had so much time to reflect on this through the course of our conversation and I’m definitely taking back a lot of learning from our talk today.
Vandita
So glad to hear that Sanaya. You were wonderful.
Vandita
Until next time then, stay with us on our journey towards a radically kinder world.
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For more delightful discussions on practicing feminism and fostering communities of care, check out the other episodes of the Nurturing Radical Kindness podcast! Until then, here’s a reflection activity for you to mull over.
| Reflection Activity – Feminist Leadership Reflect on your interpersonal relationships—whether with family, colleagues, friends, or others—and identify practices that you can shift or change through the lens of feminist leadership. What power dynamics or assumptions in these relationships might you challenge to create more equitable and respectful interactions? How can you bring more empathy, collaboration, and accountability into these relationships? |
About the Nurturing Radical Kindness Podcast
Radical Kindness is the ethos and practice that forms and informs One Future Collective. It guides our constitution as an organisation and is the core value that guides our work. It is a politics of love, fighting against apathy and hopelessness. Often being ‘hard’, ‘stoic’ or ‘rigid’, is considered crucial for social change, and it is this very notion that radical kindness challenges. It espouses that being kind, compassionate and loving in our activism can still pave the way for dissent, defiance, growth and rebuilding. It is a tool we seek to use to rebuild our systems with care, nurturance and justice at their core. It allows us to hold various stakeholders, including ourselves, accountable in how we interact with ourselves and our communities and to build towards a lived reality of social justice collaboratively.
Hosted by Sanchi Mehra and Vandita Morarka of One Future Collective, this podcast attempts to unpack what it means to be radically kind and how we can practice it through conversations with members of the One Future Collective community.